rmfield Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 The problem here is simple. There are alot more people who like to shoot 3-gun matches than there are folks willing to do all of the work to put a first class match on. The solution is a bit more difficult. 3-gunning needs more people stepping up and helping to plan and run matches. If you don't like this situation, quit whining and think about how you might be able to contribute solving the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VNGunfighter Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 The problem here is simple. There are alot more people who like to shoot 3-gun matches than there are folks willing to do all of the work to put a first class match on. The solution is a bit more difficult. 3-gunning needs more people stepping up and helping to plan and run matches. If you don't like this situation, quit whining and think about how you might be able to contribute solving the problem. Well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanLock Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 I can understand the point of veiw that the rmfiels is getting at, there are a lot of people saying what should be done, me included, and not enough people willing to actually do it. 8000 miles in my way for a start. BUT.......!!! Lets look for a second at how much it cost to even take part ina basic 3 gun match, there is : Pistol Rifle Shotgun all the ammo for all 3 platforms all the belt kit, practice time and ammo, gas, food, in some cases accomodation even flights in some cases time off work, for the self employed among us, and then of course match entry........ Match enrty cost is just a tiny part of the overall, cost of playing this game. to be honest, i think it plays very little part in the way people choose which matrches to shoot and which to not attend. it is all about Reputation. we think nothing of spending THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS !!!!! on the the kit to play this game, but moan at having to pay, an extra $100/$150 even $200 dollars to actually take part. in the best match of the YEAR!!!!! Putting the match enrty up would not make it elitist in the slightest.!!!! it just makes for a better well managed match that tests the shooters abilities. make it cheaper for juniors and seniors, the rest of us should suck it up and play our game with the big boys as best as we can. It should be first come first served, with prority to juniors, seniors and members of the home club. If you havnt got your S**T together, then thats just to bad...sorry. No other match on the planet as far as i know has a "lottery system" for picking entries. its obserd!! Rant off Kindest regards Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERIC Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 The Desert Classic filled up in a few hours in the first day. Does this mean it will go to a lottery system next year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactustactical Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) rmfield, your post is absolutely spot on concerning the lack of people willing to help in a match. Our local match here faces the same problem as no one is willing to help and we are ready to bag it because of that. But, I don't see what it has to do with the Superstition instituting a "lottery" system. They have good staff, a good range and good stages. More staff will not allow them to use more days because of range demand, so more staff really does not apply. In the same vein, charging more does not solve the problem either. They are locked into the number of days available due to staff's personal lives, vacation time, range access and other factors. Charging more would simply allow the match staff to buy more prizes for the prize table or have more money for props. It would not solve the attendance issue. Their problem is popularity. For years, it was the only game in town (along with SOF), so people looked forward all year to attending. That attitude / perception has continued even though there are matchs taking place in different parts of the country that offer the same types of stage, value for the money, price table, etc. I don't know if a lottery is the best answer, it seems to create logistical problems from the entrant's standpoint that have already been alluded to and seems sure to cause ill will to those who are left out. It does stop the issue of too many entries arriving in the same day and which gets picked, etc. Perhaps the long term answer is simply that the entry demand goes down as people start attending other well run matches across the country. As the matchs across the country get better reputations, hopefully the demand for each will reduce the demand for the Superstition and attendance will become a more manageable number due to the entrants available dollars. Shooters usually have a semi fixed amount of money available to attend matches. If they begin using that money on matches other than SMM3G more and more, the available spend for the match should drop and the # of entrants should drop. In other words, the market takes care of itself over time. A lot of time. I am trying to apply business economics to a business event ( the match), but it makes a lot of sense to this old business major. Sometimes the best tinkering is no tinkering. Only time will tell. regards Edited November 1, 2006 by Cactustactical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmfield Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 rmfield, your post is absolutely spot on concerning the lack of people willing to help in a match. Our local match here faces the same problem as no one is willing to help and we are ready to bag it because of that. But, I don't see what it has to do with the Superstition instituting a "lottery" system. My point is that the problem the SMM3G staff faces is a symptom of the bigger problem --not enough folks willing to step up and organize/plan/execute major 3-gun matches. Since the early days of SOF, the number of competitors has grown enormously while the number of first class matches has not. I understand your point about the match being popular, but if there were more quality matches out there to choose from, I think the problem would go away by itself. I think most local 3-gun clubs see this problem at their local matches as well. There are those who love the sport and will do what it takes to make matches happen. And then there are those that arrive just in time to sign-up and always have an excuse to leave the instant they are done with their last stage. As to the lottery system, I'll leave my judgement aside until I see how it works this year. Its worth a try as what they did last year was not the right answer. In any case, I'm just glad the folks at SMM3G continue to put the match on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactustactical Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 I understand your point about the match being popular, but if there were more quality matches out there to choose from, I think the problem would go away by itself. I guess we agree in concept. I do believe that there are already good quality matches taking place that people could attend in place of the SMM3G, if need be, regionally so to speak. I just think there is the lingering perception that the SMM3G is THE match to attend. Once people realize there are other worthy alternatives,both from a match and cost perspective, this problem will be reduced or eliminated. And then there are those that arrive just in time to sign-up and always have an excuse to leave the instant they are done with their last stage. Amen. I had a guy ask me this week why our December match was cancelled because it was held on Christmas Eve. After all, he would be done by 11 AM or so. He had no clue that the match staff spends half of the Saturday before setting up and does not get awayfrom the range on match day until 3-4 PM. It takes that long to tear down the range and clean up all the brass and hulls that the shooters are too lazy to get. Funny, the only brass that seems to get picked up is 38 super. This guy just nodded and walked away. Odd, but he did not volunteer to help. And people wonder why matches stop taking place after a while. But, that is a conversation for the "I Hate" forum, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 I am just the guy who helps out with the website but a lack of staff or money isn't the problem as I see it. The amount of space and time that are available is the real concern. The range only has so much space and shutting down the public range to get a little more realestate might help but it costs the club money for each day it is down. Time is also an issue because Rio is a busy range with a lot of clubs competing for range time and you can't just snarf up the whole place for a lot longer than we already do. I hate the idea of raising the match fee, 'cause I'm not rich thank you, but if you want to do that I have an idea. Sell "Premium" registrations for $500. Give a slot to any competitor that wants to pay that amount. Limit those slots to 1/2 the match capacity. Let everyone else play the lottery. Just a thought. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Rio Salado supposedly exists as a club to benefit the members right? I don't see any reason why paying members and particularly Practical Division members should get thrown in the lottery with everyone else. These are the people that pay yearly dues, and constantly support the range by attending matches on a monthly or weekly basis...not being able to attend the match of the year because it's too full is a slap in the face to the regular members. And if the match fills up with just club members...that'd be fine with me. It might encourage people in other parts of the country to start pursuing running a match of the same level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 I don't see any reason why paying members and particularly Practical Division members should get thrown in the lottery with everyone else. These are the people that pay yearly dues, and constantly support the range by attending matches on a monthly or weekly basis...not being able to attend the match of the year because it's too full is a slap in the face to the regular members.And if the match fills up with just club members...that'd be fine with me. It might encourage people in other parts of the country to start pursuing running a match of the same level. I am totally with Russ here. The folks who pour their souls into making Rio Salado one of the premiere action shooting places in the country darned well ought to get some special consideration in this situation. Even ahead of the big dawgs and their sponsor slots. I also disagree with lotsa' extra cash not helping the issues behind this whole thread. Money works wonders and enough of it can solve ANY problem you can pose IF you actually want to solve that problem ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Another injustice that can easily be remedied. Since ALL of the TAC IRON shooters got royally screwed over by not including stage 7 into their overall scores last year, perhaps there should be guaranteed 2007 entry for a 2006 Tac Iron competitor. This would help balance the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 DANG, KELLY, thats a really great idea. considering that mix up it would definetly be a good idea. I'll second the motion, do we have a third? trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactustactical Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 I'm all for locals getting priority entry in every match anyplace. Every match should take care of home town people who support the match club over out of towners. Just seems right. And to add to kelly's line of thinking, everyone who had to shoot one of the long range stages this year in freezing rain, snow and fog should also have guaranteed entry to reward them for perseverance. Nice to dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 I'll second the motion, do we have a third? Third here ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 I just think there is the lingering perception that the SMM3G is THE match to attend. For us guys in Denver area, it is a treat to shoot in the tropic weather of AZ in March...minus what happened this year I guess we will just have to see how this (lottery) work out, never hurt to try something different because their are no simple solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanLock Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 "I am totally with Russ here. The folks who pour their souls into making Rio Salado one of the premiere action shooting places in the country darned well ought to get some special consideration in this situation. Even ahead of the big dawgs and their sponsor slots." Absolulty russ your bang on there mate. "I also disagree with lotsa' extra cash not helping the issues behind this whole thread. Money works wonders and enough of it can solve ANY problem you can pose IF you actually want to solve that problem ;-)" I havnt found a problem yet that carnt be fixed by throwing money at it, trust me im a plumber...;-) "I hate the idea of raising the match fee, 'cause I'm not rich thank you, but if you want to do that I have an idea. Sell "Premium" registrations for $500. Give a slot to any competitor that wants to pay that amount. Limit those slots to 1/2 the match capacity. Let everyone else play the lottery. Just a thought." This is great idea. It would appear that not as many as i thought would be willing to pay more, but those of us that are, would go for this im sure. Ok so it cost me more than the guy in the lottery, but if it gets me a slot, i would. Thsoe who can afford to, go for it, those who carnt, or arnt that fussed, go for the lottery. My only other better idea was, have a seperate prize table for people that help out for at least 1 day, or have them get a discount of a ranging scale depending on how much/many days they help set up. say maxing out at 50% would deffinatly get shooters to turn up to help, espeally shooters who have kids that wana shoot as well. They are saying its a lottery right????? Fine.......... I want to buy 100 tickets please.... Think about it.....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 I fully support Kellys idea! Irons did get a bit of a hosing. I don't know if I should feel good about finishing 5th with a whole stage dropped out of my scoring, or finishing second after the scores were corrected with in 14 points of Taran. No mention of the mess up were ever made anywhere. They just kind of majically changed on the web sight. It would have been nice to at least have some mention made somewhere Russel and Ian's point about the local shooter is ok up to a point. It should go to the "local" guys" that REALY help, not the local guys that just pay their dues each year, come and shoot and scoot. I mean the guys that help set up EVERY match, clean up after, Help run the matches...etc. This would actually be a VERY small pool of shooters so I could live with giving them the 10-15 slots righ away. The only problem here would be the fact that EVERY local shooter would sudenly become the "hardest worker out here" when you know you haven't seen them in a whole year. Who sets the criteria? Would it be Russel? Would it be Ian? I really don't think it should be Ian as he is a bit of a transplant and really hasn't been there that long The only thing I see here is that the lottery system does mess with anyone who has to fly to get there. In order to get cheap flights anymore they have to be booked well in advanced, whether you are coming from Norway, The U.K., or "Floriday" ( hey I had to make it rhyme) The only othere thing I have to say is "comon # 112" Good luck everyone! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanLock Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Right then, What we need a is a club big enough and bad enough, willing to let us buch of cowboys come along and play with all our mates. What we need is somewhere local that will let Cav arms put on their match that isnt a thousand miles from phoenix. Any kind range owners out there wana help out.???? Every one seems to be saying the same thing, a lack of good matches to go to, and availble range space. Well lets solve this s**t Any one got any in's anywhere, or any ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Kurt, My idea that they should go to club members first is based on the idea that the club exists to serve the members. Anyone from anywhere in the country can join Rio Salado...and that would mean added revenue for the range. If there are too many members, entries should be given away in order of seniority of years as a member. Ian, Rio Salado is letting me run an annual Rifle match on Independence Day. I run this match to benefit the Arizona Citizen's Defense League, a local grass roots civil rights group. I do this because I believe both in practical shooting and the causes AZCDL supports. As a business running matches cost us a lot of time and money with not a lot of return other than that it was fun. The most effective way for us to support the shooting sports is with donations to matches other people are running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanLock Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Russ, Fair enough mate. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Ian, no offense mate, but there really is not a lack of good matches to go to, compared to say 2or 3 years ago. When all I was doing was shooting pistol matches, I could go to 1 good, big pistol match a month, 3 gun, probably had 4-6 good big matches a year. Now, I pretty much don't shoot big pistol matches any more, and just go to good big 3 gun,multi gun, and shotgun/rifle matches, at the same regularity, as I used to go to pistol matches. The good matches are out there, some are not as well known as RM3G, SMM3G, DPMS, and Benning, but they are there and have a good and growing following. The one that comes to mind as new and excellent is in Missouri, CMM3gun, (I think), I'm sure Colo. MG will be putting on some great matches as well. SMM3G, is simply a premier event, of many........it just tends to kick off the new season, and get everyone out of the winter doldrums. MY OPINION..........trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanLock Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Trapr, Im not saying that there is a lack of good quality matches to attend, what im getting at, is the fact that there is so much Kudos surrounding the SMM3G, that it it needs to relise that maybe it carnt stay the size it is forever, and cary on evolving. Im sure there are lots of great 3 matches to go to, they just dont seem to be aswell publisised as the major events. Perhaps we are doing this for the wrong reasons now?? Do we shoot these match over others event, because of the seamily huge prize tables on offer. I dont go to comps, to try to win something better off of the prise table, than what i used in the comp to start with. I go for the competion and to measure my abilities against those of my piers. Perhaps if we just had cash payouts insttead of everyone walking a prize table it would take this in whole thing in not nesersarly a better direction, but a different one.? Does anyone else feel the same? Bring back the essence of the "sport" side of things rather than trying to keep everyone happy about themselves because they came last.? but still walked the prize table. Has anyone got any thoughts on that aspect of it all. Because i think the hole argument of lottery entry vers normal, and other matchs that one can attend has subsided, because it will get us no where. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 No rules changes this time but I just posted some changes to the application page. Check it out here. -Larrry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 That's great.. I think that'll help a lot of people with planning! I hope I make it again this year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 (edited) Please note – all entries will be assigned a separate number. Therefore, please submit separate funds for each entry sent. No checks will be cashed until after we confirm you still want to shoot the match, after you’ve been selected – not before and not when received. Hmmm... No limit??? Edited November 5, 2006 by PacMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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