Larrys1911 Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Hello All, I've been reading a little on the spring forums and I have a Newbie question I am sure! IIRC a 45 acp will cycle at around .07 seconds! From the time the trigger is pulled to the time it is back in battery! I cant seem to break .2 splits with any regularity! Since my splits on a GREAT day are never even in that Realm what's the point in trying to speed up the cyclic rate? I know I MUST be missing something! Thanks Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 "You might say that your gun already cycles faster than you can shoot, but the faster the gun cycles, the sooner the recoil pulse is done, allowing you to start acquiring the sights that much sooner" J. Michael Plaxco Shooting From Within Think that explains it, I know I really like a fast and sharp sensation rather than the sluggish roll of heavy bullets or heavy springs and slide. P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTrout40 Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 I'd say that Phil (and Mr.Plaxco) about sumed it up. When your eye speed gets to the point that you are watching the action of the gun and waiting for it(which is why I don't shoot a 45 anymore), it's time to make it faster. Even the full dust cover/heavy S*I's are too slow for me. My limited gun slide is lightened down to under 10 oz. I would describe it as cycling like a 38 super. It's really really fast and back on target before you know it. The best split I have had with it is a .10...the scarry part is I landed 2 A's at 10 yards..hehe It just comes down to how you like the gun to react. See if someone in your area has a lightened limited gun and give it a try. Maybe it's for you...maybe not. Matt T A40855 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 all correct. But you entitled this thread *recoil spring ...*. Changing the recoil spring lb. WILL NOT CHANGE YOUR SLIDE CYCLE TIME! Lightening the slide will (the preferred way), decreasing bullet weight will (at the same PF by increasing the powder charge, but at the expense of increased recoil) but messing with the spring will not... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Uhh...are you sure 'bout that Det? A heavier spring will slow the slides rearward speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypher Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 I agree with TDean I think the recoil spring lb. affect the slide cycle time (as well as all the other things you mentioned Det). I would be curious to hear your explanation as to why it doesn't. I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm just saying that I think it would. Then again I didn't think that going to a lighter recoil spring would lessen perceived recoil. Homero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTrout40 Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Here is how I see it.... Let's say the standard spring is 16#. A lighter spring, say 12 or 14, would allow the slide to move back faster but close slower. A heavier spring, say 18 or 20, would slow the slide down moving back, but close it alot faster. So we are not changing the overall slide speed, but just a portion of it. Maybe we are splitting hairs...but I agree with Detlef that lightening cuts are the way to go for TOTAL performance. I differ from most of the people in the "springs" forum, as I run a heavy spring in my gun. With a light spring, I have to pull the gun back down a little for the second shot, but with the heavy spring it comes back down to POA on it's own. i guess that's why I can pull the trigger as fast as I can out to 15 yards and land 2 good shots. (not that I recommend that, but you get the point) Just my 2 cents...but what do I know, I'm just a driver...the pit crew works on them!! Matt T A40855 (Edited by MTrout40 at 12:42 pm on May 31, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypher Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 See? I hadn't thought of that... That makes sense to me. Now I can wrap my poor little brain around that concept and accept it. Another reason why I love this place Homero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted June 1, 2002 Author Share Posted June 1, 2002 Well I may be mistaken but I thought I understood someone to say that they added multiple shock buffs and a lighter recoil spring and their cyclic time went down! (lower numerically) I agree on the spring speed, however, the slide will have a max velocity that can be achieved in the amount of distance that the slide travels. Regardless how much spring pressure is applied the slide can only accellerate so fast! (I think thats how it works) If that velocity is achieved at say (random #) 12#, then an 18 # spring will not move it any faster in the available distance than the 12# (if the distance were greater it would change of course) I might be WAY off here, BUT I bet someone will tell me if I am! Kinda like powder charge and bullet velocity! at a certain point, you can add more powder but you will get little if any gain in velocity! You can only burn so much powder in a given barrel length! Maybe some of that makes sense! maybe NOT! LP (Edited by Larrys1911 at 8:32 pm on May 31, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypher Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 OK... Thanks Larry. Now my brain is unwrapped again. Det, can you clarify your earlier statement? Thanks Homero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 hmm... I didn't realize this would become subject of a discussion. Spring rate is given in units of force, force is mass times acceleration. Any bit the slide travels faster backwards it also travels slower forwards for a lighter spring. This assumes complete (so-called) elasticity, i.e. it neglects a number of effects that chew up mechanical energy differently for slow and fast travel. Buffs, for example, get deformed permanently, and more so by a fast slide than a slow slide when they're hit (funny enough, this would lead to *slower* cycle time for a light spring, but the effects surely is very small). If you want to know how well your slide bounces back, shoot one round (no mag) w/o a recoil spring in the gun... (disclaimer: test to be performed by trained professionals only! Gun may sustain damage...). --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Shoot the gun without the recoil spring???? I think I would be more inclined to follow the advice of all of you that have "been there before". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 did that with an old 1911. Gun shot, slide returned, no damage done. w/o mag. The main spring alone apparently chews up a lot of the energy. And before you ask, a lighter main spring *will*reduce cycle time. And no, don't attempt to shoot your gun w/o main spring for ultimate reduction of cycle time Boy, were we stupid to try all of this when we were *little*... And we tried more than I'd feel comfortable posting... --D. (Edited by Detlef at 2:21 pm on June 3, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 The "bouncing" is where I was going. The faster the slide impacts the frame, the faster it rebounds fwd. I can see how a lightly sprung gun with shock-buffs could develop a slow cyclic rate. The "bounce" and subsequent rebound of the slide is absorbed by the cushioning effect of the shock-buff. That coupled with a light recoil spring, could definately slow things down. Glocks rebound a faster moving slide differently than a 1911. The polymer frame absorbs the force of the slide hitting the locking block, then rebounds the force back into the slide (assuming the Glock doesn't have one of those darn Buffer-tech shock-buffs). The 1911's frame on the other hand, being more solid, transfers more of the slides energy into the shooters arm which (absorbs) the rebound energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Personally, I don't care about theoretical cyclic rates... I use a light spring and as many shok-buffs the gun will (with 100% reliability) work with only to make the gun "feel" softer. (And there's already been plenty said about that... so that's all I'm gonna say about that. In addition, if cyclic times were "the magic answer," why would The Great One be wippin' some serious butt with a 6" .45 Single Stack. I've shot it - it's "slow." But for some reason, you can rock with it. The way The Great One describes it is that it's a - ''timing issue." Although, from a technical standpoint, I'll agree that's really not saying much - that's what it feels like to me as well. It's like the softer, slower slide movement allows you to keep better track of the gun during the entire time it's cycling, so you are "more ready" to shoot when the gun returns to battery. It doesn't give you that "on-and-off" feeling like a super quick cycling gun does. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted June 4, 2002 Author Share Posted June 4, 2002 Detlef, Thanks! I disagree, but thats not really what I was looking for anyway. The real question, regardless the method, is: WHY do you want to speed up the cyclic speed, if you cant shoot the gun as fast as it will cycle to begin with? Phil D and Matt T fixed me up there! Thanks Brian, That was more of the answer I was looking for! Would you mind telling me where to find your aforementioned discussion on "soft recoil" I don't think I can run but one shock buff in my 1911 and keep the slide release working (IDPA)! might have to do some playing soon, see if I even notice a difference! Great Forum BTW Larry P (Edited by Larrys1911 at 2:27 am on June 4, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravisT Posted June 4, 2002 Share Posted June 4, 2002 (Edited by TravisT at 6:49 pm on June 10, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebraketurn Posted June 5, 2002 Share Posted June 5, 2002 If you want to know how well your slide bounces back, shoot one round (no mag) w/o a recoil spring in the gun... (disclaimer: test to be performed by trained professionals only! Gun may sustain damage...). --Detlef this i gots to try! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted June 6, 2002 Share Posted June 6, 2002 Larry, I don't have a specific thread in mind. Maybe it was just a "general impression from the past..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted July 6, 2002 Author Share Posted July 6, 2002 Well, I finally got a chance to do a little experimentation with recoil springs. Took my Trusty little 1911 to the range along with an assortment of recoil springs, from 11 to 18#. I was just moved up to Master in IDPA at the AR State Match I had a friend that is very close to my ability there also. We were shooting doubles on a 2" dot at 7 yds as fast as we could and measuring the splits. Quite honestly we couldn’t see any real distinguishable difference in any of them. The best difference we got was .15 and that was not consistent. Did we do something wrong or are neither of us to the level that this makes any difference yet?? Or Maybe we are talking about differences that are VERY small I hear quite a bit of talk about using the right spring so I am still trying to figure this out and am now wondering if it matters at my level! Larry P Its better to burn out...than to fade away! (Edited by Larrys1911 at 11:35 pm on July 5, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 I think that just because someone else notices a particular change in gun or ammo produces beneficial results for them is no indication of whether you can expect to have the same, the opposite, or no reaction. I suspect you'll just have to try these improvements on a case by case basis and see. That is what makes shooting so great and so difficult/frustrating at the same time. It's not coloring within the lines, it's creating the painting from your head and heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 Larry, Yes it has a lot ot due with your level of shooting. At the lower levels you are trying to get everything working properly and as TJ is fond of saying "there's a whole lot of stuff goin on" when you are shooting. As you progress the little things start to make a bigger difference. If you are shooting .25 splits the recoil cycle looks and feels a lot different than if you are running .13 splits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvc40jim Posted December 12, 2002 Share Posted December 12, 2002 A wrapped up brain is not all bad, mine has been that way for years and years. You can do many things to change the "cyclic" rate of your gun. Lubrication, reduced or added weight and recoil springs are some of those things. Like has been mentioned, if you go with a diff. weight spring you will change not only how the gun cycles but the rate that it cycles. Slower opening will in most cases give you more felt recoil, but may give you the perception that the gun comes back on target faster (heavy spring). If you get the slide open faster and ease it slower into battery you will likely perceive less recoil, the mass of the slide moving faster will absorb more of the energy. It is more a matter of timing than anything else. Each of us learns to muscle more or less dependent on what we want to do. I run one of my limited guns with a 10lb commander length spring and the lighter slide gun with a 9 lb commander spring. I also run an product improved version of a full length guiderod. The setup I have allows the slide to cycle very fast, and remain very flat, fast enough that when I know I am running to fast and not paying attention like I should I use slide glide (now, used to use something else) to slow the slide down a little and give me more time to look for the front sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted December 13, 2002 Share Posted December 13, 2002 I just throw a handful of dirt in my gun when it starts running too fast. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidp1911 Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 This is how I determine what recoil spring to use. Let's say I start with an 10lb recoild spring in my open gun. I fire one shot and after recoil I see where my dot settles down on target without adjusting it. If it's HIGH on the targert then I may need a HEAVIER spring, if it's LOW on the target then a LIGHTER spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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