Recoil Spring vs Cyclic Rate

[Flexmoney]

You can adapt the gun...or you can adapt the shooter.

[Detlef]

I agree with Flex and consider this one of the very worst ways to tune your spring set-up. At least, rather than firing one shot, you should fire 5000, and then see. The shooter will inevitably tune his recovery actions to gun behavior with practice. From all the above, "as light as will still feed reliably" is what most shooters prefer. Don't worry if that makes you initially shoot high, you will correct for that soon.

--Detlef

[Paul B]

Sorry for the late entry into this discussion, but after reading the thread about the recoil spring strength "not" changing cycle time a wierd thought came to mind.

If the rearward slide speed is balanced by the frontward speed (ie if one is fast the other is slow and vice versa) what happens with the addition of a Springco or a Recoil Master? In my semi logical mind the extra (shorter) spring at the back of the cycle should allow a really fast rearward travel with a really fast forward travel. Is this breaking the laws of physics? My Springco does seem to do this, but I could be just used to it.

[dvc40jim]

As I work on my morning coffee, before I head to the range with my very lightly sprung limited gun, I thought I would comment again on spring rates.

Its been pointed out that it is a very fine line that you can effect with the recoil spring alone. Its also been pointed out that the mainspring effects felt recoil and cycle time as well. (No you can't fire a 1911 without a mainspring installed).

ANYTHING you do with regard to a change in spring rates (either of them) or lubrication has the chance to alter cycle time. Timing as pointed out is one of if not the most critical factor. If you can take advantage of a better timing cycle then you have the opportunity to take the advantage from shooters who can't.

The slide can only move at a given speed regardless of the amount of force used to move it. In both the forward and rearward movement of the slide, that movement begins with the slide at a dead stop. Add shokbuffs to shorten the amount of rearward travel but still cycle the gun.... viola.... faster cycle time! Lessen the amount of force the slide has to overcome to begin movement to the rear..... faster cycle time! Lesson the amount of force the slide has to overcome in order to start its movement forward...... faster cycle time!

What you encounter and what most of us struggle to overcome, is what the gun does as it is fired. Nothing stays perfectly aligned like we would like for it to do. When fired, the gun recoils, and in most cases it recoils up. If you run too heavy (depends on the gun, and you) then the slide will really jump. When the slide moves forward and goes back into battery.... the heavier the spring, the harder the slam forward. Keep in mind that the slide can only move so fast, with the heavier spring the excess energy has no where to go, so it dumps at the end of the forward travel, and translates to muzzle dip. Can you learn to shoot like that, sure.. the more you learn to muscle thru it the better you will get.

If you run a spring that is too light, the slide will move out of battery faster, and be able to overcome the forces that pushed it to the rear much sooner. When the slide moves forward the goal should be to only have enough spring energy to strip the next round and move into battery. If the spring too light one or both of those actions will suffer.

The right answer to today's pop quiz is you have to know your gun. It can be sprung (mainspring and recoil spring) for optimal performance, and each shooter will vary as will each gun.

If you use one of the 2 reliable aftermarket guiderod systems there is an advantage to be gained, the question is if you can take advantage of what the systems offer in conjunction with the tuned springs. Commander length springs in full length slides offer another set of advantages, and the life of the spring is longer than by trimming full springs.

[Detlef]

all very thoughtful and agreed (whatever you do with those springs, it will affect timing of the recoil, though it may not affect cycle time much), until you got to this:

If you use one of the 2 reliable aftermarket guiderod systems there is an advantage to be gained,....

There is a great many shooters (myself, but also much better ones than myself included) who would disagree with that. It's very much subjective, and any absolute objective statement like the one above is just not doing the matter justice. Otherwise all top shooters would use these systems, and that is just not the case.

--Detlef

[dvc40jim]

Mine was not meant to be an absolute statement. It is possible that the advantage provided is simply not required because of a given skill set, or advanced skills.

Fiber Optic Front sights is one example.

Jerry Barnhart gave us another when he shot the Open Nats with iron sights a couple years ago. It would be hard to argue that a dot sight provides no advantage to most shooters, Jerry showed us that most shooters couldn't catch him even having the advantage.

TGO routinely wins Tuesday night steel at RIO with a limited or production gun, beating open shooters. Showing that he doesn't always require the advantages provided by a hi-cap open gun.

The advantage provided that I propose is not absolute, nor can it be equally measured as an absolute with varying techniques and procedure in common use.

[Detlef]

then we're on the same page. Still, you mention "advantage provided", and what I meant is that this advantage is in the same category as an advantage of a red painted wall over a blue painted wall: It depends on your taste and preference... Now...Benny Hill always argues that inserting another part that can break into your pistol is an objective and tangible disadvantage, but that's another story entirely...

--Detlef

[GvU]

A couple of weeks ago I was testing a 12.5# spring versus a 14# spring. 12.5 seemed just a bit faster but returning on target was better with 14#. Cycling is in my perception not influenced. Needless to say I went for the 14# spring.

For what it's worth my recoil master did't matter at all (again my perception).

When I started shooting this 40S&W (Para) I even tried to determine the difference between 180 and 220 grain bullets. At the same PF no perceived difference.

A PF of 190 (Detlef saw me shoot that stuff at the WS in SA, as we shot in the same squad) is a bit different from 175! I remember being surprised as I thught the PF to be somewhere between 180 and 185 (I bought my ammo in SA). However that became most appearant shooting them side by side with my regular reloads.

Maybe I not that sensitive to these minor differences.

DVC, John

[Detlef]

needless to say, John did a lot better with his 190 PF than I did with my 175...

But yes, I, too, believe I can tell 190 from 175 *every* time. And a .45 175 from a .40 175 *every* time. And for my life, I can't tell the 14 lb recoil spring from the 10...(tried it blind) when shot with the same ammo...