jhgtyre Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 After finishing a course of fire at a match I cleared my gun by placing my weak hand over the breech and capturing the ejected live round in my palm. The RO commented that I could be DQ'd for that safety violation. I did not bother to argue with him but the guy that taught me that technique was my CCW instructor and an officer of our club. Is this a DQ'able offense? I can see some of the logic that an ejector fire would frag my hand but wouldn't it also send shards flying, potentially towards myself and the RO, if my hand were not there? -jhgtyre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 No it's not DQable; yes it will cause you more injury if the ejecting round detonates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted May 10, 2002 Author Share Posted May 10, 2002 Thanks for clearing that up. I think I will stop doing it anyway since, as you point out, it does seem that it would do more damage. -jhgtyre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 I know one of Brian's SV teammates that happened to... it took him out of commission for a while. And while AROing I witnessed a unloading detonation. It happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted May 11, 2002 Share Posted May 11, 2002 I have seen part of a finger blown off as well as injuries. I would not do it. Every time it was traced back to hand over the ejection port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianH Posted May 11, 2002 Share Posted May 11, 2002 Back "in the day" that was THE way to unload; everybody did it....that's because most people felt wierd about watching a live round hit the dirt. I watched a guy blow schrapnel into his hand......twice. Same guy, same gun...about a year apart. It's not a safety violation, it's not DQ-able. Your RO would know what he could DQ you for if he'd bother to read the rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted May 11, 2002 Author Share Posted May 11, 2002 Thanks for all the replies. I haven't seen this happen so I didn't really get how nasty it could be. I am sure that the guy who dispensed his little advice bomb to me meant well but as you mentioned a stroll through the rule book might be nice for him. I would try to enlighten him but I think the glare from his ego might block out my attempt. Thanks again. -jhgtyre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted May 11, 2002 Share Posted May 11, 2002 If I'm ROing you, I'll ask you again to show clear and you'll stand there until I do. We have some guys who quick stroke the slide to flip the round into the air which in its own right is a safety issue because of the potential of the ejector setting off the primer. When they do that, I ask again to see clear. They don't get a "gun clear" until I see an empty chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted May 11, 2002 Author Share Posted May 11, 2002 You are assuming that I didn't hold the slide open for him to see the empty chamber. I did. As a matter of fact I held it open until told to holster as I always do. (Edited by jhgtyre at 7:51 am on May 11, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted May 12, 2002 Share Posted May 12, 2002 You cannot DQ somebody for doing that. The RO is making up rules. What are all the DQable offences... Sweeping AD 180 violation Dropped gun Unsportsmanlike Conduct That's all that comes to mind at the moment. In any case, doing any atypical unload and shot clear does not warrent a DQ unless it includes any of those events. I hate it when ROs make up the damn rules as the go and it seems DQs are the ones they most often like to make up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted May 12, 2002 Share Posted May 12, 2002 Um Kev - some clarifications :-) Sweeping - EXCEPT for drawing and re-holstering AD - it's only an A.D. if it hits the dirt within 3 meters or leaves the range or the berm or you're reloading. 180 violation - good as it is Dropped gun - only during the course of fire is this a dq Unsportsmanlike Conduct - uh huh - sure. Go ahead and try :-) But you forgot the most important one - unsafe gun handling. The catch all be all mostest stupidest rule in the book! Pretty much let's the RO's do what they want and call it this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted May 12, 2002 Share Posted May 12, 2002 Unsafe gunhandling is what the R.O. was probably going to reference for covering the ejection port.... it is VERY subjective rule. What one person considers "unsafe" maybe just a bad practice to another..... I've been told in the same match by different R.O.s that : 1) flipping bullets out on "show clear" and catching them is a DQable offense 2) easing the round out and dropping it in your hand is "unsafe", just let it fall 3) Why are you dropping good ammo on the ground? Just catch it as it falls out Confusing to say the least. I currently just slowly show clear (not covering the ejection port!) , allowing the bullet to fall to the ground. Seems to satisfy most R.O.s around here, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 Well okay, my $.02. I cover the ejection port and drop the round out into my palm. The guys who KB into their palms are the ones who get a round caught in the ejection port, then start reefing on the slide, driving it back and forth, trying to force the round out of the gun. And as they slam the slide forward they've got the round turned enough it drives the ejector - which does a wonderful impersonation of a firing pin - right into the primer. If you turn the gun over on its right side and slowly, smoothly pull the slide to the rear, the round will not get caught in the ejection port, it'll fall out right out of the gun and into your palm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted May 22, 2002 Author Share Posted May 22, 2002 Duane, The method you described is exactly what I was doing when I was reprimanded. It is good to hear that someone besides the guy who showed the bullet palming trick uses it. Thanks, -jhgtyre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmc9x23 Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 If we are talking about IDPA, on page 30 of the green book it states "Unsafe gun handling will result in a DQ from the entire match". It just makes sense for the safety of everyone concerned that the SO should not allow this to happen. Never put your hand in a position that could cause you harm. If I were the SO the shooter would get a stern warning and I would notify the Match Director to have that contestant watched carefully in his/her other stages. At my shooters briefings I always cover that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted May 23, 2002 Author Share Posted May 23, 2002 I don't usually shoot IDPA. I can't stand the Rules Race. Earlier in the post I did mention that I would cease to use the palming method. What I find interesting is the number of opinions about what is safe and what is unsafe gun handling. I would like to hear from anyone who has seen a KB when the slide was being slowly retracted. We have heard some chime in with tales of nasty wounds caused by a KB into the palm. Were those guys really yanking on the slide? -jhgtyre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 The unloading detonations I heard of and witnessed were when the round did not eject and the shooter fiddled with the slide, jiggling it back and forth. Just like Duane said. Don't do a half-assed slide rack when you unload. Give it a good pull to eject the cartridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 "If I were the SO the shooter would get a stern warning and I would notify the Match Director to have that contestant watched carefully in his/her other stages. At my shooters briefings I always cover that point." Oh come one, dude. There's a safe and an unsafe way to do just about anything, and this is no exception. To say this is flatly unsafe loses the respect of people, like me for instance, who've been doing this for, oh, 18 years without a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 Sorry to butt in so late but, well, I've been up to my a** in crocodiles ! There are a whole bunch of DQ offences other than the ones originally mentioned by kbear38s, and these include: 1. Handling ammo in a safety area; 2. Discharge during movement; 3. Finger on trigger while moving or reloading; 4. Handling a firearm outside of a safety area without RO approval; 5. Drawing or holstering a firearm in a tunnel; 6. Allowing the muzzle of a firearm to point rearwards more than 1 metre during the draw or reholstering; 7. Wearing or using more than one firearm during a competition; 8. Holstering a single-action without applying the safety; 9. Using prohibited sustances. Read Section 10 of the rulebook for more details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 Hey Vince! What's new in Hong Kong? (I won't ask about the crocodiles!!?!?). Thanks for the perspective on international/IPSC rules as we approach the world shoot. Good to have clarification on "the" rulebook since its what the world follows, with local exceptions. Thanks also to Kath for the AD clarification. There are ADs and then there are, shall we call them "unintended" shots into the berm - a phenomenon I know more about than I'd like to admit. As long as one keeps the muzzle in a safe direction, the unitended shots were just an unfortunate learning experience from the early days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Hi Carlos, If you or anyone else here is going to WSXIII, there are two ways we might meet each other and, if we do, I certainly hope it's because we run into each other at the shooter's area. I certainly hope we don't meet the other way ......... I'm on Arbitration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmc9x23 Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 Duane, I've been driving for 30 years and I believe i'm doing it safely, but happens. Covering your chamber with your hand is not safe...period. As an SO I am not in the habit of requiring a resume to see who has been doing it safely for 18 years and who can possibly blow their hand off. It is an unsafe act in any responsible shooters book and if I am the Match Director I will call it. If you do not like it "Dude" go shoot another sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 This is why we have rules. One guy thinks one way....another guy has a different opinion. And the cool thing...this forum. We can openly discuss differing points of view in the search of truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted May 25, 2002 Author Share Posted May 25, 2002 So if jmc9x23's opinion were fact then wouldn't there be a rule covering this exact situation? That there is not leads me to believe, as Duane mentioned, that covering the port is dangerous under some circumstances but relatively harmless in others. Is it a good habit? Maybe not. Neither is putting your weak hand thumb across the top of the strong hand wrist when shooting a semi-auto pistol. Should you be DQ'd for that too? Trained? Certainly. -jhgtyre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 Fire the pistol once with that grip, and consider yourself trained. The rules should be there to help not hinder. But some people are beyond help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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