Showing Clear

[Bob Hostetter]

Covering the ejection port with your hand while carefully ejecting an unfired round can be safely. It is done by 1000's of people every weekend at matches across the country. Personally, I don't do it because I flip the cartridge into the air and then catch it in the air with my weakhand. That is something that can also be done safely.

Simply because something has the potential for causing harm is not a reason for making it wrong or against the rules. If we did that then shooting would have to be stopped because of the potential for injury or harm.

Judge the act on weather it was done safely, and not on weather you personally like the idea or not. As a Ro or SO, you are not there to apply personal opinions, you are there to see that the written rules are enforced.

[Nik Habicht]

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Quote: from Bob Hostetter on 4:34 pm on May 25, 2002

As a Ro or SO, you are not there to apply personal opinions, you are there to see that the written rules are enforced.

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I disagree.  What they pounded into our heads over and over during the Level 1 R.O. class was that getting the shooter safely through the course of fire is our primary responsibility.   Now I'm not looking to DQ anyone, but there's a reason why unsafe gun handling exists as a disqualifying offense in the rule book.  It's to provide discretion to the R.O. to allow him to ensure that his stage runs safely.

[Flexmoney]

...just to play devil's advocate...

Grey area rules leave the barn-door wide open.

What if the RO is some crotchity old prick...who just went thru a divorce...and got the bill...and, was forced into retirement...just had a flat tire...and lost his medication???

His personal pet-peeve may become a DQ'able offense.

[gm iprod]

Then take him out the back and suggest that he is lucky he has not had a heart attack to go with all his other troubles and his headache that is about to come on.

[Vince Pinto]

Three points folks:

1) Despite the best intentions of rule drafters, the rule book will never cover all possible scenarios. Been there, done that, and I'm still doing it!

2) Shooters can make stupid mistakes and RO's can make bad calls and that's why we have an appeal process. In civilian terms, the RO is the cop and the Arbitration Committee is the Judge and Jury.

3) There can be varying degrees of the same infraction. Once again in civilian terms, driving 85mph and 200mph in an 80mph zone are both speeding, but the former is arguably less serious.

If you come across an RO who you think has exceeded his authority or has made a bad call, use the appeal process and don't take it personally.

In my experience, the appeal process quickly separates the chaff from the wheat.

[jmc9x23]

The whole reason we have safety rules is that something COULD happen. True, thousands of people do it everyday, doesn't mean its a safe act. My job as an SO is to see that shooters enjoy the game safely and return home in the same condition that they came in. If you want to handle a gun in an unsafe manner than stay home and do it all you want.

The SO is not exceeding their authority by keeping shooters safe thats why the unsafe handling provision is in the rules, it gives the SO some discretion for rules not specifically covered.

So when an SO gives you the Show Clear command, just grab the back of the slide and carefully eject the live round, if the live round gets hung up keep the slide back so the SO can reach over and help you clear the gun. Some guns aren't tuned properly to eject live rounds, the port is too short and they end up dropping out of the bottom or gettting hung up. So do the SO and other competitors a service by showing clear properly.

[Bob Hostetter]

The are no guidelines or rules in either sanctioning group (IDPA or USPSA) about what is the "proper and safe" way to unload a loaded gun. As such the competitor is required to do it in a manner that does not violate any stated safety rule. Examples would be breaking the 180, sweeping themselves or another, or having an AD. It is the RO's or SO's job to enforce "those" rules, not apply personal opinions or beliefs.

If the local club has special rules, and they are announced at the shooters meeting, great go ahead and enforce them.  But you can't enforce things you personally think "should" be against the rules only those that are actually in violation of IDPA or USPSA's official rules.

If as a RO's or SO's you are incapable of proforming that function without enforcing only those legitment rules, then you are the one who should stay home.

One of the biggest problems I have seen in retenting new shooters is how they are treated by RO Nazi's. There are ways to ensure the sport remains safe, and then are those who enforce every rule, or supposed rule, as if god would strike them down if they don't DQ someone at every match.  

Make sure everyone plays safely by ensuring complinace with "established" safety rules, and by appling a huge amount of common sense, and leave it at that.

[Duane Thomas]

"If you do not like it "Dude" go shoot another sport."

Geez, not to be rude, but who died and made you God? People who disagree with your opinion do not have to stay home and not be allowed to shoot the sport.

[Bob Hostetter]

D. Thomas,

Sorry if I came off being overly aggressive but I was responsing to 9x23's comment that if someone did not like his idea of what the rules "Should" be instead of what they "Are", they should stay home.

Personally I think everyone should be allowed to shoot as long as they follow the rules. However over the last 17 years of competition shooting I have met a lot of people who should not be allowed to RO/SO a stage or match.

But that is just my opinion.......................

[Duane Thomas]

Bob,

That wasn't aimed at you! Please believe me, I agree with everything you've said.

Later.

[DogmaDog]

Whooo...gettin kinda hot in here!

I think I saw this technique (palm over ejection port unloading) described and illustrated in the Marine Corps Pistol Marksmanship manual as one of 2 ways you could properly unload.

I did it at an IDPA match, and after I was done, the RO calmly told me that it was unsafe and that he had heard stories of people blowing up their hands that way.  So I said "OK" and ceased doing it.

IMO that RO did it the right way.  Don't get all excited, don't get authoritative.  Be calm.  Be firm.  Explain why you're making the call you're making, and be polite.  Especially when there's no reason to think the shooter is intentionally doing something dangerous, and it's not immediately threatening (or is over).  That will go a long way toward making the competitor believe you really are there to look out for his safety, and not because you get off on authority.

Semper Fi,

DogmaDog

[jmc9x23]

Here on the east coast almost every match the shooters are warned about palming the slide when unloading to show clear. It is a safety hazard, if not done correctly. However the SO do not know each shooter nor do they know who can do it safely and who can't. So to eliminate the problem we don't allow the showing clear by palming method. Like I've said shooters are instructed not to do it before the match. If a shooer does it he is warned that the next infraction will be cause for a DQ. We don't get off on our authority or power, we simply look to keep our shooters safe. Murphys Law being what it is, If it can go wrong it will. In our Litigeous society, we avoid gray areas of safety and side on the area of caution.

I really do not like when someone who doesn't know you or what your philosophy is to disrespect you by calling you "dude" and "Who made you God". But when a rule is there for everyones safety and some jailhouse lawyer wants to take exception and make an issue out of it, then I get upset. These SO's are honest hard working people that volunteer their time and effort so that we all can have a good time. So simply put, If you are the type that wants to follow the letter of the law insted of the spirit of the law, then for the sake of all of us that are looking to enjoy an afternoon of shooting with our friends, just stay home. Paying your membership to an organization really doesn't give you the right to interpret the rule the way you want, thats the match directors job. Right or wrong it's the MDs call.

I had to DQ a shooter last match because when my SO yelled cover the shooter turned around fully and pointing the gun at the SO said "what?". I had him unload and returned his match fee to him and explained to him what he did wrong and that he would have to show us that his gun handling has improved before he is invited to shoot with us again.

When it comes to the safety of my staff, spectators, and shooters I take my responsibility very seriously. I am not a range Nazi nor do I ever want to be one, I am just a Volunteer with a big responsibility to the folks in my charge. No matter how long I've been shooting or how much I've learned, I always weigh all the facts before I make a decision. In looking at the possibility of a round going off in someones hand then in My matches it will not be allowed(and almost every match I shoot form Maine to Florida). Sorry but its my call and if you can't live with that then like I've said before, Please"stay home" and we'll save ourselves a lot of aggravation.

[Duane Thomas]

jmc9x23,

Thank you for courteously explaining your rationale for why palming the ejection port while unloading is unsafe. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, but that's cool. I assure you my using the term "dude" was not meant as disrespectful. It was meant, if anything, to be self-parodic. If my "Who died and made you God?" comment offended you, I apologize. My perception was that you were telling me, "I'm right, you're wrong, and if you disagree you can stay out of the sport." I'll be the first to admit I may have read something you didn't write or intend.

[Bob Hostetter]

9x23,

Based on your last post you admit that palming the slide during unloading is not patently unsafe, only if done in a unsafe manner. You also state that when you DQ someone for it, you are not following the rules, but what you think the "Spirit" of the rules really mean...........In other words what you think they should be, not what they are.

I agree that volunteer's are good hard working people. From my personal expereince of being an RO, SO, RM, and MD at USPSA club, state, and Area matches, and IDPA club, state, and regional matches I have found that as a group they are great people. But I would never again use someone that took it upon themselves to enforce their concept of the spirit of the rules.

As a MD (on any level) I must always be aware of the fact that I am selling a product or service to a group of people that have a lot of other choices. I can and do require that they use my product (the match) in a manner that is within the rules and is in accordance with all safety rules. But I do not allow individuals involved in helping to run the match add extra rules because of some special insight that somehow escaped the founders of the sanctioning orgination. I realize I have only been competing and working matches for a little over 17 years, and for people like Bill Wilson maybe a little over 24 years, but I feel that since none of the major sanctioning groups (USPSA, IDPA, SC, Bianchi Cup, Masters, NRA Action, National/State Police Games, etc) find it unsafe, I can probably trust their judgement. Is it possible to do it unsafely, o'course, and if a competitor did it unsafely it would be immeadiately addressed.

Since you state that the reason you find it unacceptable is that it has the "possibility" of being unsafe, how do you allow people to run around with a loaded gun? In my line of work I have seen a lot more injuries resulting from that then from unloading a pistol.

You seem like a decent person, so I am going to assume that you are not some form of Range Nazi, just like I am not a Jailhouse Lawyer. But I still have a problem with you appointing yourself to a position that can override the rules of a orgination that you promised to enforce as written, by accepting the role of a SO.

Different strokes for different foks I guess. Please advise us as to what ranges you SO at  so I can make sure that I don't attend.

[Shooter Grrl]

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If the local club has special rules, and they are announced at the shooters meeting, great go ahead and enforce them.  

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 Nope - not even then can you enforce local rules.  Red IPSC/USPSA rulebook says you gotta have a letter from the RD allowing you to enforce your local rule.

Now that my PET peeve has been cleared up - I'm using my moderating dictatorship to lock this topic.  The question has been answered, and IMHO, the rest of this is just plain turning ugly and offends my maidenly sensibilites :-)