How high can a wall get?

[mcoliver]

COF: Start sitting behind a desk. About 5 yrds from the desk is a 7-foot high wall (~10 yards wide) with doors and ports, targets beyond the wall at varying distances. On signal, draw gun and engage targets when visible.

Logical shooter: On signal, approach wall and engage targets from doors and ports in the most efficient order.

Creative shooter: On signal, gets on top of desk and engages targets that are all now visible.

Question: Is there any rule that states that a wall is suppose to extend to infinity upwards preventing the creative shooter scenario? Or are target engagement supposed to be done "from the ground"?

Thoughts?

Thanks.

[Vince Pinto]

Here's my thought process:

Rule 2.2.2 specifically deals with the maximum height of walls which need to be climbed but the wall you mentioned is only intended to be a vision barrier.

Rule 2.2.1.2 states that charge and fault lines are "deemed to extend to infinity" but that doesn't apply to your question.

Bottom line: Unless the COF briefing prohibits climbing on the desk, or states that the wall is deemed to extend vertically to infinity, the competitor is entitled to do as you describe, provided no safety rules are broken.

Hope this helps.

[JFD]

I'm now going to install at least one break-away leg on any tables I may use.  That's just a little more creative than I can stand.

[titandriver]

 On any course I design with walls or vision barriers I state: "they extend from the gates of heaven to the bowels of hell".

 I don't think TDean heard that last Memorial Day in Idaho --- or I forgot to state it. I still feel bad about him gettin' all those penalties!

[Flexmoney]

I think that is some awesome creativity!

[Vince Pinto]

I may have told you guys this story before, but there was a stage at WSXI in Brazil in 1996, which had a real car as a prop.

The start position was "pumping gas" and, after the start signal, you had to engage two banks of paper and metal targets.

The course designer intended for competitors to engage one bank from the rear of the car and the other bank from the front of the car, and he erected some vision barriers on target stands.

Something like 12 squads go through and shoot the stage as intended in about 15 secs but then Squad 13 comes along.

I forget who was the competitor but, on the start signal, he drew his gun, went prone, and he shot all the targets from one position under the car, in about 10 secs.

The RO was stunned, and I mean absolutely stunned but, as no safety rules were broken, and it's freestyle .......... badabing.

And guess how the next 20 squads shot the stage (no prizes)?

Yes Sir. Ah just loves creativity .........

[mcoliver]

IIRC, you mentioned it was TJ who did that in one of the threads here.  

On a related note, we had a stage once that "required" you to shoot in front and behind a prop car. I noted there was no fault line mentioned where the car was placed. I thought I can shoot everything by standing inside the car.  But decided against it and gave benefit to the fact that 99% of the cars here don't have top downs.

Thanks for the replies guys. I may just test this in the coming shoots.

[noname]

---

Quote: from Vince Pinto on 11:53 pm on Jan. 30, 2003

Here's my thought process:

Rule 2.2.2 specifically deals with the maximum height of walls which need to be climbed but the wall you mentioned is only intended to be a vision barrier.

Rule 2.2.1.2 states that charge and fault lines are "deemed to extend to infinity" but that doesn't apply to your question.

Bottom line: Unless the COF briefing prohibits climbing on the desk, or states that the wall is deemed to extend vertically to infinity, the competitor is entitled to do as you describe, provided no safety rules are broken.

Hope this helps.

---

Vince,

You could also refer to 2.2.3.1: They (barriers) must be high enough to serve the intended purpose......

I would tip my hat to the shooter for thinking outside of the box.

[jersey boy]

(Edited by jersey boy at 11:46 pm on Jan. 31, 2003)

[jersey boy]

Right on the money again VP. you know your s--t dont you. It's simple if the RO did not say it in the walk though.Then you can do it. Just a hint when I do a walk though with a wall I always say ( unless theres a port) This wall goes from the ground to god.That way there is no mistake.

  Go  Fast  Shoot A's

[Duane Thomas]

I'd think there might be a safety/muzzle direction problem from climbing on the table. It could take some truly careful gun manipulation to avoid passing the muzzle over the berm, especially if a reload is required.

[PhilTerry]

Where does it say that passing the muzzle over the berm during a reload is a problem??

[Duane Thomas]

Passing the muzzle over the berm at any time is grossly unsafe. If the gun discharges at that point, you'll sail a bullet over the berm. What goes up must come down.

[PhilTerry]

Isn't that why the rule exists to have your finger out of the trigger guard during reloading and movement! I still don't see the problem with the muzzle direction during a properly executed reload.

[mcginnes]

I don't know if I should feel vindicated or POed. I was intending to do exactly this at our monthly match, and let myself be talked out of it. One of the guys on our squad swore up and down that all walls extend upwards to infinity, and that he knew because he was a CRO. He said he would show me where it was in the rule book, maybe I'll take him up on that and see what happens.

[Flexmoney]

Oh...I meant to ask this question a while back.

I have some video that Shred sent me. And, I looked at some stage design from another match down south. The walls seem to be the standard 4x8ft sheets of plywood...set so the the 8ft is the width of the wall, and the 4ft is the height. But, the walls are raised off the ground a few feet. This makes them around 7ft. tall, with an open space underneth them.

I thought there was wording in the rule book that wouldn't allow a guy like me (gamer) to shoot under the wall. But, I could find it in the book?

[Ron Ankeny]

Hmmmm... at our last match we had an array of targets to the right side of a barricade and another array to the left side. The intent was to shoot around each side and the reach was such that you would need to be a contortionist to shoot both arrays from one side. I happened to notice that I could stand on the 2x4 base that comprises the "box" at the rear of the barricade and shoot over the top. I thought that was way too gamey so I didn't do it, but apparantly it would have been legal.

[ErikW]

There's no rule that says props, walls, or vision barriers extend from the ground infinitely upward, but many course notes say it. Some matches, clubs, and ranges might even have it as a "standing rule." Sort of like the "orange mesh is full hardcover" that we take for granted.

Even if you print it in the match booklet that supposedly every shooter gets, I don't think it's really legal until you say it in the course description's notes.

[scotty]

It was always taken for granted (I assume) at one of my local clubs until one gamer shot over a wall on one stage. No safety rules were violated, but other shooters thought it to be rather unsportsmanlike. After that incident, all course descriptions at that club included words describing wall height. This was usually something like "All walls extend to 83 feet 4 and one half inches in height. If you can get higher than that using existing props, you may shoot over the wall"

[mactiger]

The course description should explain the dimensions of the props. We use a lot of the walls described here--8 feet long by 4 feet wide, set about 2 feet off the ground. The CD always states walls extend to the ground and up to the sky, unless the course designer wants something different.

Having your muzzle point over the berm/backstop is not a safety violation in itself, unless you are breaking the 90 to do it. There are lots of other rules to cover safety problems--finger on the trigger while reloading, etc.

Very creative solution!

Troy

[Jim Norman]

We have found that the "Cheap" stockade fencing from Lowe's seems to work very well as a wall. 8 wide 6 high, cutting in a port in 4" width increments is easy. We have some that are at least 3 years old. We make a 2x4 brace frame to hold them up. Lightweight, durable and cheap.

We do have one or two shooters that we have to tell not to shoot over the top, but there is always that really low port to even things out.

Jim

[joseywales]

Aspiring rules afficiandos and match directors...what's your take on this stage and the resultant actions?

Starting Position: Sitting on edge of Bed, with Butt on mark, Palms on X's, feet on ground, Gun Loaded on shelf, All Extra Ammo on Shelf.

Procedure: On Signal, Engage targets as you see them from Area A Only.

On the stage diagram...

-The shelf is just above knee-level (on a 6' tall competitor) when standing on the 'bed'.

-When standing on the 'bed', the 4 rearmost targets are visible over the top of the wall, as well as through the top port.

-The targets on each side are visible at all times.

-The 4 remaining targets are only visible through the bottom port.

-Area A is 'on the bed' (one cannot physically stand on the ground to engage targets).

Seems that the RO's and a few other competitors shooting the previous weekend followed the stage designer's intent (that the 4 rearmost targets be engaged THROUGH the top port…but it didn't SAY THAT in the WSB), while others followed the WSB and the RO instructions ("engage targets as you see them").

Result: the stage was shut-down and tossed from the match results.

My opinion: Stage should have been allowed to count for score.

In talking to the MD about the rationale for shutting down the stage, I was told that 'the walls go to infinity' (to the ground, and to the sky). I've looked in the rulebook and cannot find ANY rule that would indicate that this is the case.

Takeaway for me as a MD in learning mode – KISS – to prevent competitors from engaging targets from positions you do not intend…affix vision barriers to block those targets from view, or clearly state your intent in the WSB.

[Catfish]

Like Steve, I can't find anything in the rule book that specifies walls go up forever... I do recall at other matches, however, in the WSB that it will say something to the effect of 'walls go up to infinity and down to the ground"; the inclusion of that language into the WSB this weekend would have negated the problemo and will be something to remember in the future for matches where I will be setting things up.

[Mick]

And, to add to this problem there was a stage where the walls did NOT go to the sky as we HAD to shoot over them.

So let's make this confusing.

One stage says yes and one stage says no to walls going to infinity.

I think the MD made a BOOBOO and should have left the stage for score. Was he mad because he didn't do what we all did? If not, why did the RO on the stage allow it shot that way?

That was about the only time I've seen a stage at the TLC thrown so quickly.

[markm]

This weekend was case of RO's getting panties in a bunch casue they did not think of it. BTW good Job Mick on becoming the TEXAS STATE LIMITED STATE CHAMPION!

Edited August 20, 2007 by markm