New Action Shooting Sport

[Loves2Shoot]

Stop the insanity please!

How about all the common safety rules.

A holster retension test at the start of every match. Who cares where you place your holtser and mags, you just have all the pouches full (the entire match) and the gun holstered (the entire match) as long as it doesn't break the 180 on the draw.

All stages are comstock, no more than 6 shots required per position, no "targets that spin in a circle.) All stages are a minimum of 18 rounds and there are no stages requiring "strings" or timed fire.

There are two divisions Optics and Irons. Optics, anything goes. Irons 18 round limit in mags unless banned by law (then 10 rounds apply) and no compensators. Major an minor apply, .38 cal or larger (Optics and Irons.)

Class is determined by overall finsh percentage (how about that as a way to ruin sandbaggers day.) Classes are M- 85%+ A - 75%-84.9% B- 60%-74.9% C- 45%-59% D - below 45%

Sound like fun anyone?

Feel free to add your thoughts

[Clay1]

L2S, have you seen this? http://www.tacticalshooting.com/tsa/

It's tough to get a new game off of the ground. I think that this one will do well. Sevigney is involved with it. It seems to have taken some of the best from IDPA and USPSA. I will shoot it when it becomes available in my area.

Rick

[Flexmoney]

I have fun shooting USPSA. And, I have fun going to USPSA matches anywhere and not having to worry about the local match directors take on his vision of how it ought to be done.

[Vlad]

Unfortunatly the "two divisions" aproach means that you want a game which can be shot ONLY by people who already own equipment specialized for USPSA. You will pretty much have Open guns and Limited guns, none of which are going to be owned by the average Joe.

You can decided that you dont want the average Joe to shoot with you, but that is a self defeating business plan. I enjoy the shooting sport for to reasons 1) They are FUN, and 2) By attracting new shooters, they attract new gun owners, thus making it possible for all of us to own guns. Any shooting sport that fails on EITHER of those two points, is a economic "parasite", and I don't mean that in the insulting way, more in the biological meaning of the word.

[ima45dv8]

Quote: "New Action Shooting Sport, is it time?"

Not for me. I'm having too much fun right now.

[tightloop]

Now Flex, that sounds rather antagonistic and a bit argumentative to me...everyone is entitled to their own opinion....

[Merlin Orr]

If every shooter got a free gun and golden bullets there would be discord and discontent..

I am fine with the choices I have now.

[Loves2Shoot]

Unfortunatly the "two divisions" aproach means that you want a game which can be shot ONLY by people who already own equipment specialized for USPSA. You will pretty much have Open guns and Limited guns, none of which are going to be owned by the average Joe.

Actually, I think that is false thinking. I've won with super basic equiptment against A and B class open shooters, and so does Dave Sevigny. High zoot equiptment doesn't win matches period. Hell, I've been shooting a SS lately and with decent stage design it isn't slower at all. I have lots of high zoot equiptment too, and it doesn't make me faster, or shoot straighter. Hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange tells me I can't shoot significantly faster/straighter with $3000 limited gun than a stock 1911.

I like USPSA, but I live in a small market, the problem is with all the different divisions/classes, everyone gets a ribbon (so we stopped giving them out because that had no meaning.) Everyone's a winner, yeaaaaa.

One weekend a month we hold a match we call a "steel" shoot. IPSC like, but with all steel targets and time + misses is how it's scored. With small clubs in remote areas, USPSA matches are too expensive, and we have the steel match to be able to afford the USPSA matches.

I would much rather USPSA re-think the all inclusive approach. If you wanted a Production class, have GLOCK, Springfield, CZ and others who want to, pay for the USPSA exposure and sanctioning of approved production guns. Have a $300-500 gun for the class, no mods period.

I do think the no classification for major matches and you prize within the percentages is a valid idea, we're going to do that at a local level for non-IPSC matches, it would help balance out the Foreign shooters also that aren't classed appropriately at big matches.

People just need to know the truth, that skill wins matches, not high zoot gear. It's cool and I'll buy more (because too me it's something I enjoy) but not because it will make me better.

I will gladly be a USPSA member for a long time to come. It just seems the rules and divisions have gotten out of hand and is HURTING the sport. How much does holster position, mag position, relieving hot spots on sharp edges really matter when it comes down to it. IMO not much.

USPA has just gotten too complicated in some ways, but in others it still the best sport there is.

Just trying to get ideas to keep people coming back.

I have fun shooting USPSA. And, I have fun going to USPSA matches anywhere and not having to worry about the local match directors take on his vision of how it ought to be done.

I agree 100%, but you can't get away from some of the MD's putting their own take on things. Most are some of the best guys I've known.

L2S, have you seen this? http://www.tacticalshooting.com/tsa/

It's tough to get a new game off of the ground. I think that this one will do well. Sevigney is involved with it. It seems to have taken some of the best from IDPA and USPSA. I will shoot it when it becomes available in my area.

Rick

Any shooting sport with Tactical in the name...

... not for me...

I just like shooting accurately at speed, so I would probably shoot it anyways

[XRe]

L2S, have you seen this? http://www.tacticalshooting.com/tsa/

I took a look. Looks like another attempt at IDPA, with slightly different equipment requirements/divisions. Not my kinda game, in the end...

Rumor had it a while back that Todd Jarrett was involved in trying to set up a new game that would be in the opposite direction of IDPA - a USPSA-ish game that would allow various different targets and target shapes that wouldn't resemble torsos, potentially with more carnival appeal. That game never got off the ground, either, AFAIK.

[shred]

Yank Price tried to get ISA off the ground-- it was a non-humanoid-target, lots-of-steel "shooting for fun" game. Was it like that?

[Bigbadaboom]

L2S, have you seen this? http://www.tacticalshooting.com/tsa/

It's tough to get a new game off of the ground. I think that this one will do well. Sevigney is involved with it. It seems to have taken some of the best from IDPA and USPSA. I will shoot it when it becomes available in my area.

Rick

I looked into this and it appears that (For the same reasons I don't shoot IDPA) there's too much "The R.O. knows exactly what the shooter needs to think and do in a given situation" going on. If I pull off a .85 draw and hit A-zone or -0 zone hits and the R.O. thinks it was too fast to be real then they can D.Q. me for a neglagent discharge.

I don't have anything against TSA, IDPA or any other shooting sport and I'm all for them succeeding and growing I just don't agree with their agendas. Now, this is "my" baggage but I just wonder where those R.S.O.s are going to be to tell me how I need to engage when someone threatens me or mine if it ever really happens. I'll stick with IPSC. It basicly allows me to do things my way with few restrictions.

[XRe]

Yank Price tried to get ISA off the ground-- it was a non-humanoid-target, lots-of-steel "shooting for fun" game. Was it like that?

Mighta been... It's been, like, 7 or 8 years or so, now, so....

[tightloop]

L2S

Good luck in getting it going, even the best plans need testing from time to time...mayve nothing will come of it, but thinking outside the box is good in itself..

[Loves2Shoot]

OK,

I'm not really looking to start a new sport!!!

I just think there could be some BIG benefits to "simplifying things" in USPSA.

Why have a holster retension test if we don't use it? It had a good enough purpose at one time to be logged as a rule, and I heard a friend of a friend of a friend say he had to do one once.

Sort of like goverment, building rules on rules for rules sake makes no sense to me.

If I'm not totally out to lunch, verdict is still out on that, maybe it is time to reduce the # of pages in the rule book. I'd be willing to help. I can understand simple.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Loves2Shoot

[shred]

Why have a holster retension test if we don't use it? It had a good enough purpose at one time to be logged as a rule, and I heard a friend of a friend of a friend say he had to do one once.

Um, we don't have a holster test anymore.

I'm all for less rules, so long as everybody can agree on them

[Loves2Shoot]

LOL

Thanks for the update

[Flexmoney]

There you go...one less rule already.

[Ben Stoeger]

[

Actually, I think that is false thinking. I've won with super basic equiptment against A and B class open shooters, and so does Dave Sevigny. High zoot equiptment doesn't win matches period. Hell, I've been shooting a SS lately and with decent stage design it isn't slower at all.

Well I am not Dave Sevigny or you... So I would like a division for 9mm production guns...

Edited March 15, 2006 by Ben Stoeger

[SRT Driver]

[

Actually, I think that is false thinking. I've won with super basic equiptment against A and B class open shooters, and so does Dave Sevigny. High zoot equiptment doesn't win matches period. Hell, I've been shooting a SS lately and with decent stage design it isn't slower at all.

Well I am not Dave Sevigny or you... So I would like a division for 9mm production guns...

Don't you mean Italian 9mm DA/SA Production guns?

[Steve J]

Stop the insanity please!

How about all the common safety rules.

A holster retension test at the start of every match. Who cares where you place your holtser and mags...

All stages are comstock...

There are two divisions Optics and Irons. Optics, anything goes...

Class is determined by overall finsh percentage...

Sound like fun anyone?

Feel free to add your thoughts

What ever happened to this?

(from the IPSC Constitution)

3. Principles/Objects

(4) Practical shooting competition is a test of expertise in the use of practical firearms and equipment. Any item of equipment, or modification to equipment, which sacrifices practical functionality for a competitive advantage contravenes the principles of the sport.

Production and Single Stack Divisions are just a throwback to the IPSC Constitution.

[Vlad]

Unfortunatly the "two divisions" aproach means that you want a game which can be shot ONLY by people who already own equipment specialized for USPSA. You will pretty much have Open guns and Limited guns, none of which are going to be owned by the average Joe.

Actually, I think that is false thinking. I've won with super basic equiptment against A and B class open shooters, and so does Dave Sevigny. High zoot equiptment doesn't win matches period. Hell, I've been shooting a SS lately and with decent stage design it isn't slower at all. I have lots of high zoot equiptment too, and it doesn't make me faster, or shoot straighter. Hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange tells me I can't shoot significantly faster/straighter with $3000 limited gun than a stock 1911.

I disagree. Equipment makes a difference. How much of a difference is dependent on the shooter but declaring that it doesn't is a bit of an overstatment. Capacity makes a difference or we would all be shooting single stacks. Sevigny won L10 with a glock, but capacity wasn't an issue. Last I checked the Limited folks where still winning with high capacity guns, with long tuned magazines and all the high speed low drag gear.

Open guns are open guns. Good luck winning in open without an open gun.

I would much rather USPSA re-think the all inclusive approach. If you wanted a Production class, have GLOCK, Springfield, CZ and others who want to, pay for the USPSA exposure and sanctioning of approved production guns. Have a $300-500 gun for the class, no mods period.

Thats again a way of telling new shooters to take a hike. YOUR gun is no good in our game. You have to hope that whatever gun we picked fits your hands. You have to hope trigger length is good for your. And if it is perfect for the next guy over and it sucks for you .. oh well .. Life is hard, get a helmet. Oh, and you are going to have buy our ammunition too, because if all things need to be equal and "production" no more of that cheating 127pf ammo you load at home.

Sorry man, that way maddness creeps. That, and no new shooters, which means death of the game.

[raz-0]

you just have all the pouches full (the entire match) and the gun holstered (the entire match) as long as it doesn't break the 180 on the draw.

Ok, I might just be a wiseass, but how do you shoot the match if your gun is holstered the entire time and you can't take a mag out to reload even if it wasn't?

Actually, I know what yo intended with the holstering bit, but not with the mag pouches bit.

Edited March 15, 2006 by raz-0

[Loves2Shoot]

I we are comparing skill, fewer points for non-A hits only makes sense, it is equity in sport.

But that is part of my whole point. All the breakdown of divisions and overly complicated rules is watering down the game IMO. Competition is about measuring your skill and improvement, isn't it?

The gear doesn't matter a fraction of what people seem to think it does IMO.

Production in USPSA/IPSC is a good thing. There are just too many people who should play in Limited if the were honest with themselves instead of range lawyering the rules so they can get (in their mind) a percieved advantage.

Having new shooters see you burn down a stage with an open blaster and high zoot gear can give them the impression that it is the gear. That's why I make an effort to make sure to show them it can be done at "almost" the same speed and accuracy with vanilla el cheapo gear.

Let's work to get the focus back to the shooting part of the game.

[Vlad]

But that is part of my whole point. All the breakdown of divisions and overly complicated rules is watering down the game IMO.

What does that mean? Watering it down how? Personally, I think production and L10 are HARDER then the other divisions, in that it is harder for me to get the same HF. Maybe there are some people who shoot in production because they think the rest of the competitors are somewhat "weaker" and they have a better shot at prizes. But if it is all about the shooting that doesnt matter. If we compete against ourselves you can get better in any division. How is production or single stack (with which I have a beef, but not this one) watering down the sport, when the present even harder challenges due to equipement restrictions and magazine size? How is making something harder watering down the sport?

I don't mean to paint you with this brush, but most of the time people who complain about to many divisions really complain that the prize table or the prize money gets split more so they get less of it while winning the class/division combo they feel comfortable in. I'm not really impressed by that argument.

[Loves2Shoot]

I disagree. Equipment makes a difference. How much of a difference is dependent on the shooter but declaring that it doesn't is a bit of an overstatment. Capacity makes a difference or we would all be shooting single stacks. Sevigny won L10 with a glock, but capacity wasn't an issue. Last I checked the Limited folks where still winning with high capacity guns, with long tuned magazines and all the high speed low drag gear.

Thats again a way of telling new shooters to take a hike. YOUR gun is no good in our game. You have to hope that whatever gun we picked fits your hands. You have to hope trigger length is good for your. And if it is perfect for the next guy over and it sucks for you .. oh well .. Life is hard, get a helmet. Oh, and you are going to have buy our ammunition too, because if all things need to be equal and "production" no more of that cheating 127pf ammo you load at home.

Sorry man, that way maddness creeps. That, and no new shooters, which means death of the game.

Of course it makes a difference at some point, but to compared to actuall skill level it is minimal. And Sevegny does good when he uses a Glock in Limited also. I've seen it, it isn't anything specail at all.

Actually, good stage design can nuetralize 10 versus 20 rounds advantage. You just have to focus on making good stages. I guarantee you it isn't the gear that makes any of the top shooters win. They just play with what the rules says they can, so do I.

I know if you lifted the mag restriction for open there would be guys toting huge mags, and they would think it is an advantage to never do reloads.

I'm saying if you want to shoot a gun for any reason then do it. If you want to get better, do it. New shooters stick around because they like to play and the feel welcome. It is the old shooters that help them by letting them know their stuff is good enough to win, not making "Special ED" places for them to play.

What does that mean? Watering it down how? Personally, I think production and L10 are HARDER then the other divisions, in that it is harder for me to get the same HF. Maybe there are some people who shoot in production because they think the rest of the competitors are somewhat "weaker" and they have a better shot at prizes. But if it is all about the shooting that doesnt matter. If we compete against ourselves you can get better in any division. How is production or single stack (with which I have a beef, but not this one) watering down the sport, when the present even harder challenges due to equipement restrictions and magazine size? How is making something harder watering down the sport?

I don't mean to paint you with this brush, but most of the time people who complain about to many divisions really complain that the prize table or the prize money gets split more so they get less of it while winning the class/division combo they feel comfortable in. I'm not really impressed by that argument.

Good points. The more you break up the overall finish it to group, the harder it is to compared performace. 50 people at a match, 5 Div, 6 Classes, everyone wins. Throw them in the pot together it shows you more acurately where your performance is.

I know this is overly simplistic, but it is getting overly complicated the way it is.

If L10 is harder to score the same score, it's the stage design or reloading skill. Both can be fixed without more rules. Production, scoring less for non A hits makes sense to me because of the recoil factor, the mag placement thing is just silly IMO.

I could care less about prizes, period, I would rather have reasonable match fees and good stages.

Actually, I know what yo intended with the holstering bit, but not with the mag pouches bit.

You would get the guy making a mag pouch on his chest or forearm, or something idiodic like that, having a rule to make people carry their gear might help shift their gear to place that make sense for them, and less rules. If he had to carry a mag in the pouch he would be less inclined to strap it to his forehead.