Limited Shotgun Reloads

[lcarr]

What is the fastest way to load a Limited shotgun?  I see there has already been a thread on reloading open shotguns, but not much discussion of limited.

Thanks,

Lincoln

[ErikW]

I don't know if there is a definitive "best" technique.

I like to hold the forend with my weak hand as I bring the receiver down to my waist and grab two shells from the Choate carrier. Then, angle the gun slightly to match the angle of the thumb feeding shells to the EasyLoader.

Always count shots. Always keep one in the chamber. Almost always top off the gun while walking between positions. If you never miss, don't bother reloading more than necessary and shoot the gun dry at the last position. For example: shoot 6, load 6; shoot 4, load 4; shoot 7 load 6; shoot 8 to end the stage with an empty gun.

That's the gamey way. Here's the "tactical" way, as demonstrated to me at a "tactical" shotgun match after I used my gamey way. Keep the gun mounted on the shoulder. Keep your eye on the Pepper Poppers, you never know when they going to attack. Meanwhile, nevermind that your front-heavy 10 pound auto is straining your wrist. Grab a shell with the weak hand and feed it into the magazine backwards because your eyes are looking for steel and paper "threats" downrange as you stand there in the open with a less-than-fully-loaded, low-capacity, slow-to-reload gun. When you realize the gun won't feed from the magazine because of the backward-facing shell, deploy the tactical tools and disassemble the shotgun to remove the uncooperative shell.

[Les Snyder]

Lincoln... I use a 25round elastic loop belt, that carries 2 Choate trays much as Eric mentioned. I do the initial load on the line from the looped belt, but try to work 3 shells at a time from the trays. I dont lower the receiver as much as Eric does, more like the butt goes under my strong arm pit and roll the receiver about 1/4 turn in case I have to drop one in the open chamber. I tie a loop of "bungee" (tarp ties) around the center of the Choate trays to keep the shells from bouncing quite as much.   I am currently working with a BlackHawk 8shot carrier on my left forearm( I previously used a slip on elastic buttstock shell carrier) shells worn to the outside, primer to me, so I can roll the receiver counter clockwise|(muzzle as vertical as possible), have the shells right there, immediately next to the loading gate, and can use forefinger and thumb to manipulate the shell.  Right now it is possibly a tad slower but a whole lot more consistent... at North Carolina, they cut the "jungle" lanes and left 6inch to 1ft high tanglefoot saplings and you really had to watch your footing.  regards

[ErikW]

Yeah, on second thought, I think I only lower the gun to about rib level. The idea is to make a very short and efficient distance from the carrier to the loading port.

I started using an elastic single-shell x25 loop nylon belt, and it's not bad, you can easily grab two at a time.

Just don't rely solely on a buttstock or forearm or receiver shell-carrying system, as they don't hold enough shells. For instance, a 25 round course will require at least 16 reloads.

[lcarr]

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Quote: from Erik Warren on 1:43 pm on July 24, 2001

I like to hold the forend with my weak hand as I bring the receiver down to my waist and grab two shells from the Choate carrier. Then, angle the gun slightly to match the angle of the thumb feeding shells to the EasyLoader.

...

That's the gamey way. Here's the "tactical" way, as demonstrated to me at a "tactical" shotgun match after I used my gamey way. Keep the gun mounted on the shoulder. Keep your eye on the Pepper Poppers, you never know when they going to attack. Meanwhile, nevermind that your front-heavy 10 pound auto is straining your wrist. Grab a shell with the weak hand and feed it into the magazine backwards because your eyes are looking for steel and paper "threats" downrange as you stand there in the open with a less-than-fully-loaded, low-capacity, slow-to-reload gun.

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I'm trying to mime this out here at my keyboard and I just tried it out dryfire with my 11-87.  Let me try to read it back to you in my own words so that I know that I understand.

From a firing position, with my support hand I brought the shotgun back until it was basically in the crook of my arm with the stock and receiver against my body.  The loading port was facing upward, perhaps 35-40 degrees away from my body.  I then chucked shells in as fast as I could using my strong hand.  In this initial tryout, I used the Sidesaddle only.  

Just a note, I'd been taught to load from the shoulder.  With about a minute and a half of practice, I was loading as fast or faster using the above method than with the shouldered method I've practiced for years!

About the "tactical" reload staying on the shoulder, I've had a couple of shotgun classes with Louis Awerbuck and that's the way I was taught.  However, he isn't really doctrinaire and, about "gamey" methods, if it works it works.  

The real "tactical" solution if your shotgun runs out of ammunition is to let it hang if you're using a tactical sling, dump it over your head if you're using a carry strap, or just shitcan it altogether; and draw your pistol  Try that at a 3-gun match.  :^)

About the gun getting heavy when keeping it on the shoulder, I let the gun hang enough to take the weight off.  I recall Louis telling people to do this explicitly if the weight got to be a little much.

About sticking a shell in backwards, you mean you aren't checking the orientation of each and every shell by touch in the middle of a gunfight?  :^)

Thank you very much for your help,

Lincoln

[lcarr]

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Quote: from Les Snyder on 2:45 pm on July 24, 2001

I tie a loop of "bungee" (tarp ties) around the center of the Choate trays to keep the shells from bouncing quite as much.  

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I've got one of the Choate shell carriers and, if it is the same one I'm thinking of, I got my version from California Competition Works.  They include a thin piece of lexan (right material?) with glue on one side to stick into one side of the carrier.  The result is that the shells have less room to move back and forth and, after installing the piece (I didn't do it right away), I haven't been able to get a shell to bounce out.  

Lincoln

[kellyn]

When loading the limited shotgun, I think there are a few things to keep in mind:

1)  Get a easyloader if you have an 1100/1187.  If you're loading a Benelli, make sure that the shell is fully seated or it will pop back on the shell carrier preventing you from loading anymore shells.

2)  Look as you load.  Watch that shell go into the magtube.  Don't try to do it by feel alone.  I believe that this is critical!

3)  I pull my support arm back and turn the shotgun upside down.  I try to maintain my normal firing grip w/ my weak hand and load w/ the strong hand.  It feels weird b/c your weak elbow is up against your body and your weak wrist is twisted but it's faster. The shotgun rests across my chest.  

4) The fastest loads come from the side saddle or arm-band b/c the shell is closest to the loading gate.

5) Buy shotshell holder from Buchanan Bag Works in Scottsdale AZ.  He makes the best stuff bar none.  He is a 3 gunner who actually uses his stuff.  Choate shell holders are good but I could never master picking up and holding 2 shells in my hand 100% of the time.

6) Gunsite Instructor Mike Hughes is the only person I have ever seen consistently load a shotgun quickly w/ the weak hand - but his loads are not as quick as Bennie Cooley who loads w/ the strong hand.

[Les Snyder]

Lincoln... your holders sound like an updated/ improved version... the ones I have are from the late 80's...regards

[Steve Moneypenny]

I am very interested in the shell holders by Buchanan Bag Work i am curious if anyone has tried the shotgun chest pouch from blackhawk?

thanks for the wealth of information!

[Shooter Grrl]

Wish I'd found this thread BEFORE i had to shoot a match :-)  Only one thing isn't clear to me... I automatically put the shell holders on the left side of my body and reloaded with my weak hand, just like I grab magazines...  It worked, but was awkward.  I started thinking that I needed to put holders on right side and use strong hand... is that what y'all are advocating here?

[shred]

Yeah.. I'm a lefty, but the principle is the same.  My weak hand grips the forend of the shotgun, and I roll my wrist all the way around until the gun is upside down and I can see what I'm doing, then my strong hand stuffs shells in (2 at a time if possible, using the method Ayoob shows in his Stressfire II book).  

I find it fastest to grab them off the sidesaddle, then move to strong-side belt-mounted ammo after those run out.

(Edited by shred at 1:52 pm on Jan. 29, 2002)

[ErikW]

If you want reload holding the forend of the gun, then you should carry the shells on your strong side.

I just bought a sidesaddle to see if those six rounds load any quicker. You put the rounds in brass down, crimp up, then pull down from the brass to reload, right?

[Chris Jordan]

I use my strong hand so that I can run the side saddle (assuming you loaded it brass down) as well. Also has the advantage of holding the gun further out so less strain on the arm/wrist.

Just a humble action shotgun shooter,

Chris

[Patrick Sweeney]

I guess us Michigan guys are just a bunch of strange ones, as we do it differently.  Almost everyone here holds with the strong hand, and brings the gun down to above waist level.  Stock tucked under the arm, muzzle slightly down, lifter turned to the left.

Reloading is from the Choate or belt loops, with a short distance from ammo carrier to action.  And of course, Always! watch the shells, don't load by feel.

Among the other advantages with this method, you don't have a hot barrel wedged in your left palm.

[David Benzick]

I tend to load with the weak hand off a wrist band or side saddle, with the gun upright (sights up).  However, I have never competed in a IPSC 3-gun match.  We'll see how that works for me in Mesa, AZ this March.

Since we seem to have several different strategies for loading, maybe we should record our split times for performing a two shell reload on a standardized drill. We can then report back with these reload splits and describe the reloading techique used.

Course of fire:  Set four US poppers at 15 yards.  Engage two poppers, reload two rounds and engage the remaining poppers.

What do you say?

[ErikW]

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I have never competed in a IPSC 3-gun match

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Then you'll need something else besides the side saddle and wrist band. Most courses are over 20 rounds.

[kellyn]

FYI I have yet to see a REALLY good 3 gunner load a shotgun with his weak hand.  

With Buchanan Bagworks (www.3gungear.com)  Benelli "sidesaddle" and quick two shell holder on my 1187, I have 10 extra rounds on the 1187.  The sidesaddle for benellis holds 2 more rounds than the model for the remington but it extends out onto the handguard.  I store the rounds primer facing down (so they are facing up when I turn the gun over to load it).  I like Mark's stuff better than the standard sidesaddles as it is easier to pluck the shell from webbing than hard plastic.

My reload splits vary between 1.5 and 2 seconds.

[ErikW]

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My reload splits vary between 1.5 and 2 seconds.

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If you tell me that's for all ten rounds, I won't bother sending in my entry to the 3 gun nationals.

[ErikW]

Back to the technique... I just installed a side saddle so I had to chance to mimic reloading.

I don't bring it all the way to my waist. The top of the receiver is about at my sternum. The buttstock is actually trapped by my bicep, not really in my armpit. I hold the forend close to the receiver. Tilting it just so I can see its EasyLoader puts it at the perfect angle for my strong hand thumb to push shells in the magazine.

I experimented with loading weak hand. No way is that going to be efficient for me; the angles are all wrong.

[David Benzick]

I ran my shotgun reload drill, posted above, Saturday using both weak hand and strong hand techniques.  

The fastest strong hand two shell reload I had was 4.08 second shot to shot split, with the average around 4.3 seconds.

The fastest weak hand two shell reload was 4.2 seconds with an average of around 4.5 seconds.

Sue, my consumate shooting partener and life manager, put together a 3.7 second two shell weak hand reload just to make me work harder.

Keep in mind I had only practiced the strong hand reload for about 30 min. before testing the two techniques.  I expect those splits to drop a bit.

I beleive the strong hand reload will be more reliable when on the move also.  

[kellyn]

I must post a retraction.  I have received several loud protests from 3-gunners who do load with their shotguns with their weak hand.  (They are from Colorado so take this with a grain of salt).  Since these 3 gunners tend to be quite good (and yes I'll use their names: Blaine West, Steve Hendricks, Steve Slawson, Eric Miller, Eddie Rhoads, and last but not least  Kurt Miller), I am forced to admit that they can load quite handily with their weak hand.

However,  the strong hand loading contigent won every shotgun stage at the Myst Mtn 3 gun!  

(Edited by kellyn at 9:44 pm on Mar. 11, 2002)

[xsrdx]

When Kurt won last year, I watched him load weak hand with the sgn at his shoulder, he was counting rounds and needed one more round (shot) to finish.

He reloaded during the string, it was about 4 close in clays IIRC, and never skipped a beat, his shot to shot splits were probably .20-.25 max. One round, from a belt carrier, but it was the fastest shotgun reload I've ever seen. He was lucky, but it sure looked cool.

One more thing, the gas guns like 1187s are heavier and thus tougher to reload at the shoulder. The Benellis are lighter, and easier to hold up with the strong hand. I think all the RM3G guys you mentioned are shooting M1's.

[jhgtyre]

I am not sure what gun he uses but Angus Hobdel (sp?) was reloading weak hand at one of our club matches and doing is pretty quickly.  If I recall correctly he dropped the gun to just above his waist level with the feed ramp angled in towards his weak side and reloaded off of a belt.  He placed pretty high in the MM 3gun match so he must be doing something right!

-jhgtyre

[ErikW]

I timed my shotgun reloads the other day. About four seconds shot to shot loading two shells from a Choate carrier. Slower from the receiver sidesaddle, as they aren't spaced right for me to grab two. About five seconds to load three shells from a carrier.

[Steve Moneypenny]

well, there are many ways to reload a shotgun, dipping into the tactical world for a min.

if your holding a suspect at gun point, you don't want to drop the shotgun, so you need the ability to load without looking and doing so weak hand.

if you run dry, you need to get a round into the action as fast as possible, with either gun this is to put it in the out hole ( ejection port) toss the round in, hit carier release/pump forward. have seen this done in a match by a superb shotgunner (Rob Haught) shot a popper realized he was out of ammo, ( popper launched a pigeon that come towards you) reloaded and shot the pigeon.

like a lot of things with guns, each person does things differently for their personal best. ... me i am still trying to master the bennie coolie reload i saw in front sight. :-)