Crusher Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Wow Ted, I never even considered that there are some who don't have "wide open spaces" to run and gun in for practice, let alone to be forced to use "matches" as practice. In thinking about your post I guess there are those that are regulated to "stall shooting" for practice and that is unfortunate as it can slow the learning curve related to shooting skills. I guess I am fortunate as I am not forced to "stall shooting" even while using a shooting shed in the winter months (with heat and lights). During the spring, summer and fall, outside, on three sided burm ranges is where its at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorch Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 IMHO Ted is just tried of others replacing the word "Slow" with the Word "Tactical" to mean something different than slow. If it makes the slow guy feel better about their SHooting performance then let them say tactical. Like said "tactical means different things to different folks". just my "tactical" 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 DP that is the one of the best replies yet to this whole genre of discussion. Thanks for puttin a on my face. Craig PS how's my new gun? no sweat bro, it's what I do. New gun is great, although looking at the schedule I am at a loss for a time to send it off for plating. Also good points Shred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baa Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 In all fairness, IDPA is the closest thing civilians can get to real "tactical" practice, "tactical" practice for what? If you mean safely deploying and moving with a firearm, a test of accuracy and reloading skills I guess it would be. You pretty much summed it up. IDPA gives people a chance to practice those basic skills in a controlled enviroment. I don't know about the rest of the country, but in the Tampa FL area, there are very few places which allow people to practice drawing and moving with a pistol. Don't get me wrong, IDPA is a game, and I personally approach it like a game. I see a lot of "martial artists" participating in IDPA, for the above reasons. I do understand the original poster's frustrations with some of the Practical Tactical types when participating in these events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 (edited) Baa, I hate to open this can of worms, but... You say you approach it as a game. And as has been repeated ad nauseum, if you're keeping score some want to win. If you are keeping score and have problems with some "practical types"....learn from them. They are the ones winning for a reason. It was a tough pill to swallow, but I did and I am a better shooter for it. Edited January 21, 2006 by dirtypool40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainmcphersn Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 I think for a lot of shooters, IDPA/USPSA type shooting is their only venue to shoot their gun other than in the stall of an indoor shooting range. In the action shooting they can draw, move, shoot in different directions, etc. They simply do not get that opportunity at their home range. I would not go as far as to say it's "tactical" training, but it offers some opportunities that some Martial oriented people could certainly use to their advantage traningwise. Of the people that actually use IDPA/USPSA to practice, there is a number that actually use it to reinforce their traning and test their shooting skills. They are the quiet ones that shoot it their way. The noisy ones that tell you how good they are shooting, often are the ones that have the least knowledge and ability. One of the mysteries of life I guess. Ted Well said! The last IDPA match I attended, (Tuesday night) I got a chance to chat with a local police officer who works weekends. He was very interested in USPSA but the local matches are on weekends. He was shooting his service pistol and doing quite well. He was not the fastest shooter but in the top third overall. One of the telling differences in how he shot was the headshots on any target with a no-shoot attached. He could have been a bit faster (and thus scored better) but that was not his focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 (edited) I don't use IDPA or USPSA as practice for anything. To me both are used for "testing" my skills. These "tests" indicate what skill(s) I need to work on and practice, and what skill(s) I need to do maintanance drills for practice, all the while "seeing" and "being aware" of more to increase both speed and accuracy. From my observations those that only shoot in matches for practice are far less likely to increase their skill level as quickly as those that regulate themselves to a regimented (somewhat regimented) practice/test routine. BTW I dont think safely depoying and moving with a handun, shooting while moving and preforming reloads is NOT Tactical, those are basic skill sets necessary to be able to employ "tactics" Edited January 23, 2006 by Crusher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 (edited) shooting IDPA is good for - shooting IDPA. don't try to make to much out of the sport what is not there. my2cents. M Edited January 21, 2006 by Mark Perez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg K Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I had this on the DVR so I called my wife in and showed her the initial presentation with Rob in the car. I asked her how she would solve this and she said "Floor it, crush the guy in front, leave the other two behind." My thoughts exactly. That reminds me of something Clint Smith said in a class. He basically said that if your life is in danger from someone, you use whatever you have at your disposal with the most stopping power to stop the threat and a 4000 pound Cadillac has more stopping power than a 230 grain ball from a .45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 (edited) The first rule: situational awareness. If you tell me that being "tactical" is not being aware of what, where or how many targets are trying to kill me..then you get what comes to you. Flash...Bang...Go. And yes..speed and suprise are a better "tactic" than having your opponent say to his buddy.. "There he is..shoot him when he pokes his head out again..then let's go get a slice of pie ourselves." Time out..I have to put an empty magazine back in my pocket. And if you can't see your opponent..run. As fast as you can. If you are surrounded or in a alley with no way out - Darwin was right. If all else fails, a sub-3 sec El Prez might work!!! Flash - Bang - Go!!!!! Edited January 23, 2006 by SRT Driver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I'm always highly amused by the people that like to say "An IPSC GM wouldn't do well in a gunfight", themselves having been neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Too funny, yea Joe criminal is gonna have the edge over a guy with $20K + of rounds downrange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 And yes..speed and suprise are a better "tactic" than having your opponent say to his buddy.. "There he is..shoot him when he pokes his head out again..then let's go get a slice of pie ourselves." That's sig line material right there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 (edited) Number One Rule of Self-Defense: Stay out of situations that require same! Number one rule in a fight: There are no rules Number two rule Cheat! Got to say I like the " Run the guy in front over and leave the others in the dust" Approach to car jacking. When I get in a less than desirable area, I always try to leave a car length ahead of me if at all possible. Jim Edited January 24, 2006 by Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 "There he is..shoot him when he pokes his head out again..then let's go get a slice of pie ourselves." Around these parts we call that "prairie doggin" (and that’s in the cities) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 I'm always highly amused by the people that like to say "An IPSC GM wouldn't do well in a gunfight", themselves having been neither. Wow. I may just change my entire approach to shooting after that schooling! I went and checked out the thread over at the "other forum." A couple of things; May God bless Tiny Tim and the People on THIS FORUM! Quite the difference. Saw some familiar names - and some (sadly) familiar "style" of responding to a thread. Saw a GM posting in response to the pure drivel and was amazed, yes amazed at his calm response to the unadulterated BS being put forth. Kudos to the GM. My knowledge that good mods are required on a Forum has been further reinforced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Ding, ding, ding!!! We have a winner!! A martial arts instructor, whom I respect very highly, once told me what he would do if someone pulled a gun on him. He said, "Run away. The most difficult target to hit is one that does not exist." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLD Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 (edited) So when you guys say that you "train" and that IDPA is a game and not training, how do you train? Do you have coaches or instructors or go to the various tactical academies? How do you know what tactics to practice? I for one don't have the place or much time to "train" for real. I was in the army but unless I could call in arty, I was pretty much toast, notwithstanding the mighty M9 and my expert badge. I plan on attending some sort of formal tactical firearms training, but short of that, what can a guy do? I do these games because practicing handling the gun and reloading is better than not until that time. If anyone can point to me to materials for ways to train tactically, please do. Right now my best tactical training is my treadmill. Edited January 24, 2006 by TLD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 I think I will continue to do "Gun Games", become a faster and more accurate shot and enjoy the wonderful people I have met and continue to meet. If I need to do any "house sweeps" of something similar I will call Bruce Willis or the Guvinator and let them handle it. Hell, might even call 911. Should I ever have to defend myself from anyone less than a Russian Commando I think what I have learned "playing" in USPSA and IDPA will give me a hell of an advantage anyway. My .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middle Man Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 I think I will continue to do "Gun Games", become a faster and more accurate shot and enjoy the wonderful people I have met and continue to meet. If I need to do any "house sweeps" of something similar I will call Bruce Willis or the Guvinator and let them handle it. Hell, might even call 911. Should I ever have to defend myself from anyone less than a Russian Commando I think what I have learned "playing" in USPSA and IDPA will give me a hell of an advantage anyway. My .02 O Che! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Too funny, yea Joe criminal is gonna have the edge over a guy with $20K + of rounds downrange. That won't always hold true either. It's easy to shoot people in the back of the head if they are not paying attention. And bad guys like to get the drop on people instead of going toe to toe. There is a need for training in awareness, mindset, and ( dare I say it) tactics. I just think some of the "tacticians" do not balance it well, or put zero to little weight on marksmanship and gunhandling. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jm951 Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Didn't somebody once say he won battles by being there the "fustest with the mostest"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genghis Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 QUOTE: "BTW I dont think safely depoying and moving with a handun, shooting while moving and preforming reloads is NOT Tactical, those are basic skill sets necessary to be able to employ "tactics"" +1 on that. Maybe that explains why accomplished USPSA shooters are masters of gunhandling. QUOTE: "That reminds me of something Clint Smith said in a class. He basically said that if your life is in danger from someone, you use whatever you have at your disposal with the most stopping power to stop the threat and a 4000 pound Cadillac has more stopping power than a 230 grain ball from a .45. " Reminds me of when my brother and I went elk hunting in Colorado. Bullet choice was a 1995 Ford Bronco, which mushroomed nicely on impact and retained nearly 100% of its weight. The elk was still alive 10 minutes later, the Bronco wasn't. The cop's first question was, "What're ya goin' ta do with the meat?" He did remember to ask us of we were okay, after making a cell call to his buddy to come down with coolers and a bone saw. I doubt any of my handguns would have done the same amount of damage. I think blind stages are very useful. The're rare, because they're more trouble, but they get us away from carefully choreographing every step for five minutes before stepping up and running it. One of our local match directors runs untimed stages occasionally, encouraging us to use proper tactics like slicing the pie. Also good practice. Hey, I may have a new excuse: "My times are high because I'm shooting slowly on purpose." Much less embarrassing than trying to run them fast and finishing near the back of the pack. The view's always the same from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 One of our local match directors runs untimed stages occasionally, encouraging us to use proper tactics like slicing the pie. Also good practice. Over the years I've been to about 20 fairly high level "tactical" training classes, most of them focusing on the defensive handgun. I've trained with, give me a minute....Jim Cirillo, Massad Ayoob, John Farnam, Marty Hayes, Greg Hamilton. I've done a fair amount of house clearing exercises, some but less than I'd like of Simunitions force-on-force. And of course beaucoup matches. One thing I've noticed - and I've seen this again and again - is that if you present a group of people with a shooting problem to solve and the only criterion is whether or not you survive, invariably the more highly skilled and trained the shooter, the more time they take to solve the problem. The instant you make time a factor in scoring, things reverse 180-degrees, and the more highly skilled and trained the shooter, the less time they take to solve the problem. There are people in the world who have decent tactical skills and the skills necessary to burn down a stage. Despite this whole "martial artist versus gamesman" thing, such people are not as rare as you might think. Several months ago I was talking to Bruce Gray, and he made a comment I thought was very insightful: warriors want to win. It doesn't matter if it's a fight to the death or a pistol match, warriors want to win. Now, unlike a fight to the death, a pistol match has additional rules. A moral person will follow the rules rather than cheat, just as we'd follow the law in a self-defense shooting. However within the match rules, we'll do whatever it takes to turn in our best possible score. Because warriors want to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 (edited) warriors want to fight , winning or losing is just the outcome... Edited January 26, 2006 by Mark Perez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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