2025 PST Changes

[Hoops]

On 8/6/2024 at 8:38 PM, Hoops said:

 

The link below is the next BOD 8-12-24 1900 EDT board meeting agenda.  On the agenda is review of Peak Standard Times.  You can view the live stream at

 

USPSA.org/live

 

 

https://uspsa.org/announcement/912

 

 

https://uspsa.org/live
 

Reminder to watch the live stream BOD meeting tomorrow.

 

 

[Hoops]

Tonight the BOD’s voted to rescind the recently approved 2025 PST’s and send it back to the SC Committee for review.

[joseywales]

At who’s suggestion? And what reason/rationale was offered?

[Hoops]

From what I heard, it appeared that the recommendation to rescind was Zack’s.  Based on what the President said at the intro, numerous members had been sending emails expressing concerns over the current times approved in July.  

[Hoops]

Ultimately it was a unanimous decision by the BOD to rescind and send back to the SC committee.  

[ZackJones]

9 hours ago, Hoops said:

From what I heard, it appeared that the recommendation to rescind was Zack’s.  Based on what the President said at the intro, numerous members had been sending emails expressing concerns over the current times approved in July.  

Often times I can't discuss things publicly but the BoD was aware of my recommendation to rescind them in July. We just had to wait until the BoD to approve it before we could publicly discuss it further. Jesse has reached out and offered to present Misco-Jeffers method to the committee. I'm going to ask him to fully document it and as part of that include their recommended changes based on the 2024 WSSC results. 

[Hoops]

13 minutes ago, ZackJones said:

Often times I can't discuss things publicly but the BoD was aware of my recommendation to rescind them in July. We just had to wait until the BoD to approve it before we could publicly discuss it further. Jesse has reached out and offered to present Misco-Jeffers method to the committee. I'm going to ask him to fully document it and as part of that include their recommended changes based on the 2024 WSSC results. 

Thanks for the update Zack.  It’s good to know that the SC committee will be discussing Jesse’s methodology.  The Steel Challenge membership is engaged now relative to PST’s so transparency before future changes are published would be encouraged.  Thanks

[42ATK]

I think people should be able to lose GM. My hot addition to this topic 

[ZackJones]

8 minutes ago, 42ATK said:

I think people should be able to lose GM. My hot addition to this topic 

You can. Just submit a reclassification request. 

 

[ZackJones]

2 hours ago, Hoops said:

Thanks for the update Zack.  It’s good to know that the SC committee will be discussing Jesse’s methodology.  The Steel Challenge membership is engaged now relative to PST’s so transparency before future changes are published would be encouraged.  Thanks

It's not like we weren't transparent already but one thing I am planning to do is get the process added to the rules. That way it's there for everyone to read. 

[Hoops]

Just now, ZackJones said:

It's not like we weren't transparent already but one thing I am planning to do is get the process added to the rules. That way it's there for everyone to read. 

Adding to the rule set is an excellent idea. 

[schmidtg]

3 hours ago, 42ATK said:

I think people should be able to lose GM. My hot addition to this topic 

More importantly, one should have to have all 8 stages on record to make GM.

 

I'd prefer if the maximum class for anything less than 8 stages on record for the division was M.  Some stages like Outer Limits and Pendulum are simply more mechanically difficult than other stages and should be required to be on record as a token of GM.

[42ATK]

2 hours ago, schmidtg said:

More importantly, one should have to have all 8 stages on record to make GM.

 

I'd prefer if the maximum class for anything less than 8 stages on record for the division was M.  Some stages like Outer Limits and Pendulum are simply more mechanically difficult than other stages and should be required to be on record as a token of GM.

I’d be ok with this too. Being a GM still should be reassessed automatically every time the stage times get raised

[ZackJones]

7 hours ago, Hoops said:

Adding to the rule set is an excellent idea. 

It's the blind squirrel thing - everyone once in a while I come up with a good one :). 

[Texaspaul]

2 hours ago, 42ATK said:

I’d be ok with this too. Being a GM still should be reassessed automatically every time the stage times get raised

It should be reassessed for everyone. How can you keep raising the bar and not adjusting shooter's position in a class?

[shred]

I haven't seen yet an overall goal for resetting the PSTs-- is it to level-set off the outlier really-really-good shooters or smooth out the bell curve or what?  What does the curve even look like?  What "problem" is being addressed?

 

To switch things up a little.   9.58 seconds is the World Record in the 100m Mens track race (Usain Bolt, 2009).  Noah Lyles just ran a 9.79 to win Gold at the Olympics (by .005 over the next guy).  Is the 100% for the 100m 9.58 which hasn't been touched since 2009 or is it 9.79 or what?  (FWIW no woman has even run the minimum qualifying time for the 2024 Mens Olympics at 10.0)

 

Is Carl Lewis with 4 Olympic golds in the 100m not worthy of GM status because his best time in the 100 is only 9.92?

 

[42ATK]

1 hour ago, shred said:

I haven't seen yet an overall goal for resetting the PSTs-- is it to level-set off the outlier really-really-good shooters or smooth out the bell curve or what?  What does the curve even look like?  What "problem" is being addressed?

 

To switch things up a little.   9.58 seconds is the World Record in the 100m Mens track race (Usain Bolt, 2009).  Noah Lyles just ran a 9.79 to win Gold at the Olympics (by .005 over the next guy).  Is the 100% for the 100m 9.58 which hasn't been touched since 2009 or is it 9.79 or what?  (FWIW no woman has even run the minimum qualifying time for the 2024 Mens Olympics at 10.0)

 

Is Carl Lewis with 4 Olympic golds in the 100m not worthy of GM status because his best time in the 100 is only 9.92?

 

Theoretically, in my mind, it should be a bell curve. However the % increase per shooter jumps pretty big past 100%. You have to disregard the impact the top 10-20 have on PSTs and use major matches to feed data

[zzt]

I'm with @shred.  What are you trying to measure?  What are you trying to even out.  Some things make no sense.  For example:

 

I am just barely B in Open, but I'm in the top 32% of Open shooters.  Doesn't make sense.  When the new PSTs hit and the 2022 scores drop out, I'll be C Class and still at 32%.  That really doesn't make sense.

I'm halfway between B and A in RFPO, but I'm in the top 36%.

I'm just barely A in RFRO and I'm in the top 24%.

Currently just under A in PCCO, but in the top 24%.

[jrdoran]

Given the body of data we can run simulations on how new PST will affect the distribution of each division across 1000s of shooters.  Easy to have an optimization loop vary each  PSTs to achieve a given outcome.   
 

I've been advocating for a while that we need an overall strategy of what classifications should represent.  The mechanics of the formula and implementation are secondary and important, but need context.  We all have our own interpretation of what GM...  should represent. Having a USPSA definition would get us all on the same page. 

 

Documenting the process in the rules is fine, but that is just the execution. The strategy to educate everyone on the goals is also needed in the rules.

[Hoops]

57 minutes ago, jrdoran said:

Given the body of data we can run simulations on how new PST will affect the distribution of each division across 1000s of shooters.  Easy to have an optimization loop vary each  PSTs to achieve a given outcome.   
 

I've been advocating for a while that we need an overall strategy of what classifications should represent.  The mechanics of the formula and implementation are secondary and important, but need context.  We all have our own interpretation of what GM...  should represent. Having a USPSA definition would get us all on the same page. 

 

Documenting the process in the rules is fine, but that is just the execution. The strategy to educate everyone on the goals is also needed in the rules.

I’m starting another topic regarding classifications.  It’s a bit more involved than just PST’s.  

[shred]

2 hours ago, jrdoran said:

I've been advocating for a while that we need an overall strategy of what classifications should represent.  The mechanics of the formula and implementation are secondary and important, but need context.  We all have our own interpretation of what GM...  should represent. Having a USPSA definition would get us all on the same page. 

 

 

 Strategy.  That's the word.  Until that's set, there's not much more math to do.  

 

Rumor has it long ago USPSA intentionally ignored Jerry Miculek's revolver classifier scores because they'd kill the classifications for everyone else.  Dealing with 'outliers' is likely to be the challenge.

 

[AR_James]

On 8/13/2024 at 2:30 PM, schmidtg said:

I'd prefer if the maximum class for anything less than 8 stages on record for the division was M.  Some stages like Outer Limits and Pendulum are simply more mechanically difficult than other stages and should be required to be on record as a token of GM.

 

If it went this route, also add in that GM has to be earned at a Tier 2 or higher level match.  Typically more consistent stage set up and more consistent ROs.  It would also encourage folks to support higher level matches.  

[AR_James]

17 hours ago, shred said:

To switch things up a little.   9.58 seconds is the World Record in the 100m Mens track race (Usain Bolt, 2009).  Noah Lyles just ran a 9.79 to win Gold at the Olympics (by .005 over the next guy).  Is the 100% for the 100m 9.58 which hasn't been touched since 2009 or is it 9.79 or what?  (FWIW no woman has even run the minimum qualifying time for the 2024 Mens Olympics at 10.0)

 

Is Carl Lewis with 4 Olympic golds in the 100m not worthy of GM status because his best time in the 100 is only 9.92?

 

 

Carl would still earn GM status as his 9.92 would be 96.57% of the world record.  

[Gregg K]

On 8/13/2024 at 2:30 PM, schmidtg said:

More importantly, one should have to have all 8 stages on record to make GM.

 

I'd prefer if the maximum class for anything less than 8 stages on record for the division was M. 

I'm liking this idea.

 

[shred]

2 hours ago, AR_James said:

 

Carl would still earn GM status as his 9.92 would be 96.57% of the world record.  

Only his best scores are over 95%. IIRC the average of his best four are below it