Shooting Swingers And One Handed Shooting

[tnpyeron3]

I am new to the Brian Enos forums, but have been reading them for a while. I definately learned some excellent tips from everybody.

I am an IDPA shooter , but do shoot USPSA for extra trigger time.

My question is, what is the best way to engage swinging targets, singles and doubles? I have limited availability to set up swingers to practice on.

What is the best and most effective way to practice one handed shooting? Both shooting hand and non shooting hand?

These seem to be the weakest part of my shooting.

I figure I's ask since I'll be shooting at the S&W IDPA Winter Champs, and I would like to clean up some of my weak points.

Thanks,

Terry

[Clay1]

Hello and welcome to the board Terry. In Saul Kirsch's latest book: Thinking Practicial Shooting he has a nice section on how to shoot swingers. The book is more detailed of course, but he starts out with a stop watch and times the amount of time it takes for different parts of the process to engage. For instance many times an activator that is used is a steel popper. He will time from the popper being hit to when the swinger is first seen. Then from when it is first seen to when it reaches the bottom of it's travel arch and even how long it takes before it dissappears.

With this info you can determine from your practice session par times (how long it usually takes you to do a certain tasks) what is your best course of fire. Do you have time to shoot the popper and then engage a paper target then engage the swinger etc. If it is a standard swinger, many times the shot is taken at the bottom of the travel arch. Some people fire one shot just before the bottom and one on the way back up. Your stop watch and your practice par times will let you know if this is within your skill level.

Have fun and if you have a chance to practice with a swinger go for it.

Rick

[Crusher]

Unforutunatly in IDPA you are at the mercy of the stage designer as to when and where (from what position) in a stage a swinger will be engaged as IDPA forces the use of cover if available, some of the more devious stage designers block the point at which dynamic targets become static and this forces engagement while the swinger/bobber is traveling at it's fastest after activation.

As a general rule it is best to engage swingers/bobbers when they reach the fullest movement in their arc/stroke just before they change direction as this affords a moment (sometimes only a very brief momement) of no movement. Timing swingers on a stage walk through is important so you have a clue as to what you can expect to see when its your turn to shoot. Shooting swingers in practice is the best way to gain valuable practice at different swing speeds and distance (bullet speed can make a huge diffrence in lead/hold on the targets depending on distance and swing speed).

The S&W Winter Championships have a history of intorducing swingers/spinners that move very fast and while they are fun to watch (spin wildly) they suck to shoot at because timing them can be a biatch.

As far as strong/weak hand shooting is concerned I belive that no strong hand shooting should be at targets beyond 10 yards (practice at 15 and 10 feels like touching) and no weak hand is done beyond 7 *(again practice at 15 and 7 is smoking). Just remember to shoot ONLY when your sights are where you want the bullet to go and don't worry about the time it takes to shoot it during a match (there will be time for you to study your performance AFTER the match and adjust your practice for the following match).

Good luck.

[shred]

One trick I learned on swingers is "shoot the leading edge of the scoring zone you want to hit". It works amazingly well especially when you don't get the stationary-at-end-of-swing opportunity.

Technically there's no need to 'lead' them unless they're waaay out there (in which case you can't see the scoring zone anyway and just shoot the leading edge of the paper), but adding in reaction time and all, it works.

[rwmagnus]

shred....I only wish for the days my eyes were that good to see the scoring zones on a swinging target, but I like the advise.

I basically shoot for the center of the down zero when the target get almost at the bottom of the arc then again on it's start back up. It also depends on the speed of the mover and complexity of the shot (ie like no shoots near by). Yesterday I had one in a match requiring 3 hits and hard cover was an issue from 12 yards. I put two on the target when almost at the bottom of the arc and one on it's way up, my total was down two. Actually had a nice group but they were low on the down zero circle hence two -1's. I was pleased with it. Lesson learned: Keep the sights a little higher on the target.

[BSeevers]

You will hear it over and over and all will recommend Brians's book but never think singles/doubles. You aim every shot seeing what you need to see.

Knowing your "par times" or how fast you can shoot at a given distance and swinger speed is very valid match winning advice, But, if you are not seeing what you need to see and aiming you will not be able to call your shot and miss.

[shred]

shred....I only wish for the days my eyes were that good to see the scoring zones on a swinging target, but I like the advise.

I knew somebody was going to bring that up but I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it at the time. I can't see the scoring rings on swingers very far off, but I can tell where they are and put the sights there. Eventually as targets get further out the time it takes to set the sights precisely on that line outweighs the value of the shots. That's when I switch to lead-the-leading-edge-of-the-target mode. FWIW, we rarely see swingers at that kind of distance in the US.

[GmanCdp]

on weak hand shooting....be sure to have your chin past your toes..lean towards the target...if you are right handed,shooting weak handed..have your left foot more forward then or right...

[iweiny]

As far as strong/weak hand shooting is concerned I belive that no strong hand shooting should be at targets beyond 10 yards (practice at 15 and 10 feels like touching) and no weak hand is done beyond 7 *(again practice at 15 and 7 is smoking). Just remember to shoot ONLY when your sights are where you want the bullet to go and don't worry about the time it takes to shoot it during a match (there will be time for you to study your performance AFTER the match and adjust your practice for the following match).

I really have to disagree with this. I personally push all my shooting to smaller and smaller targets at ever increasing ranges. If you practice strong and weak at 25+ yards then a 5 or 7 yards standard will look like the side of a barn!

I have been working on my strong and week hand a lot lately. For me this has been for a couple of reasons. First, it has kind of gotten me back to basics in my trigger control because I tend to "milk" the trigger as my grip strength is not what it should be. Second, I have had some pain in my wrists which I was concerned was from shooting.

Personally I feel like when I can shoot 25yrds on the move, strong and weak handed; then I can probably handle anything.

Good luck. If you want my advice, just force yourself to shoot strong and weak hand every time you are at the range or are dry firing. I know it is hard as it may not be as fun but some day you might have a plate rack at 30-40 yards and you hit 2 out of 4 shots strong hand only and you look like a really good shot to your shooting buddies...

Ira

[Crusher]

Many push the distance/speed to improve on accuracy/time Jweiny, but the thread ain't about us, the original poster is looking for some input as to what can be done before the S&W IDPA Winter Championships (end of Feb 06) to improve some weak points. Kind of like a crash course in one handed/swingers (those don't fit together well in a sentance do they?) for 6 weeks with limited ability to practice the swingers (just hope they aint the "spinner").

As far as strong/weak hand shooting is concerned I belive that no strong hand shooting should be at targets beyond 10 yards (practice at 15 and 10 feels like touching) and no weak hand is done beyond 7 *(again practice at 15 and 7 is smoking).

That is from IDPA's own course design rules, not my idea (I don't agree with it but thems the rules) another goody is no headshots beyond 10 yards (I don't like that one either)

[tnpyeron3]

I just wanted to thank you guys for all the input.

I've ordered the book and I'm just waiting for it to come.

I've been practicing one handed, but I am going to start increasing the distance out to 15-20 yds.

I recently shot the VA Commonwealth Cup and did really well, except for the swinger stage. I managed to lose the most points there. I have a friend who has a swinger and will let me use it for a while. So, I guess it's off to the range.

Thanks again,

You guys are very helpful.

[iweiny]

Many push the distance/speed to improve on accuracy/time Jweiny, but the thread ain't about us, the original poster is looking for some input as to what can be done before the S&W IDPA Winter Championships (end of Feb 06) to improve some weak points. Kind of like a crash course in one handed/swingers (those don't fit together well in a sentance do they?) for 6 weeks with limited ability to practice the swingers (just hope they aint the "spinner").

Sorry, I did miss the time constraint and I did not mean to offend.

Ira

[Crusher]

Not offended at all, great advice, just a time thing for now I would imagine.

[Jane]

Best advice I've received for shooting weak hand only was at a Gabe Suarez class.

He suggested canting the gun 30 to 45 degrees (what I've started calling a "half homey" ) For a right hander, this brings the sights more in line with the right eye (assuming you're right eye dominant)... so you don't wind up tilting your head.

Also, I try to focus on squeezing the gun's grip front and back, but not sideways... to lessen the tendency to milk it.

[xuxupecheur]

+1 on Jane's comment. I'm right handed, left eye dominant and also works for me. In my case this trick also helps locking my weak hand's wrist.

[andrewcolglazier]

Shooting swingers has been touched on to quite an extent. IMO, just about any swinger or combination of swingers you encounter will present a different shooting challenge, and my only advice to you is to look at how the swinger moves prior to shooting it, and plan your shooting position so that you have the best view possible of its "stop" point, the point at which it changes direction.

For me, distance is the main limiting factor. If the mover is quite distant, then much more care is need to prep the trigger and the sights to get good hits.

One-handed shooting can be improved by not being afraid of it. If I had a nickel for every shooter I ever heard say "Boy, I need to practice one-handed shooting!" after they stink up a stage, I'd retire.

Do a lot of dry fire strong and weak hand. Remember that your weak hand, when using a two-handed grip, has little contact with the pistol compared to when firing one-handed. Therefore, when you do shoot one-handed, the object feels alien and uncertain.

Let your hands, singly, establish a "base" with the pistol, meaning, hold the pistol one-handed regularly. Practice raising the pistol to eye level and while doing so, taking the slack out of the trigger.

When actually pulling the trigger one-handed, don't over-grip the pistol. Your hand will already be shakier than usual; gripping harder will just make this worse. Also, take the slack out before breaking the shot.

Ad Jerry Miculek told me once, "You will never win a match with your one-handed shooting, but you will sure as heck lose matches if you don't practice it!"

Andy C.

[open17]

Best advice I've received for shooting weak hand only was at a Gabe Suarez class.

He suggested canting the gun 30 to 45 degrees (what I've started calling a "half homey" ) For a right hander, this brings the sights more in line with the right eye (assuming you're right eye dominant)... so you don't wind up tilting your head.

Also, I try to focus on squeezing the gun's grip front and back, but not sideways... to lessen the tendency to milk it.

Canting the gun works for me also. Clockwise for left handed, CCW for right. The

other thing that really helps is if I can engage targets left-to-right left handed, and

right-to-left right handed. Lots more upper body strength in play if you are driving

the gun toward your center.

[Mayonaise]

I don't think anyone teaches weak side eye dominant people to cant the gun two handed so it doesn't make sense to me to do it if your strong eye dominant shooting weak handed. Just shift the gun keeping it vertical. I've worked on breaking myself of that canting and it works better for me.

I think you can get away with it at close range but as distance increases it's a problem. Plus, if you have any trigger jerking tendencies, canting will be a force multiplier. Whether shooting two handed, strong or weak hand only, around barricades etc... keeping the gun vertical is optimal IMO.