Sorting mixed head stamp brass

[Joel_x]

Does anyone have a list of brass head stamps that load similar? For example load federal (F.C) and Blazzer together….

thanks for the help!!!

[shred]

I use whatever (except stepped, brass plated steel & tiny-hole Norma because they all wad up in my press) for local matches and new brass for big matches.  Works for me.

[NETim]

Since I only practice and shoot local outlaw matches, mixed range brass works great.   In fact, I think they would work great at Nationals, because they just run!!!

 

No one that I know of runs 9 major at my little club though.   So I don't worry about that.  

 

 

[lgh]

Good question. There was a long thread on the subject a few years back if you can find it. IIRC, some had issues mixing head stamps and other didn't. I started separating 9mm head stamps such a long time ago I can't remember what issues I was having but I was having issues with 9mm mixed. As you know, there are slight differences in case height and thickness that might impact reloading. 

 

Never separated 45acp because it didn't matter with 45.

[zzt]

Here is a list of 9mm case capacities I got from a poster on these forums.  Different capacities will have different pressures from the same load.

 

FWIW, I use mixed HS, range pickup for all 9mm minor.  I use fully processed, once fired, same HS brass for 9 major, then leave it on the ground at matches.

 

 

9mm case capacities.pdf

[NETim]

Since my loads are fairly mild, 4.1 W231, 124 grain coated, I have some leeway I believe. 

[Joel_x]

Thanks for all the reply’s guys!

I wasn’t sure how to state the question…. I didn’t know if anyone had a list of head stamp brass they sore together because they load to the same length. I’m more chasing consistent COAL across different manufacturers. 
currently I sort into 4 groups.
Group 1 fc/blazer/speer

group 2 xtreme

group 3 CBC

group 4 everything else. 

 

Last year this worked great. The group 4 “everything else” has had some extreme deviation and needs to be broken down further. I was hoping someone had a list that grouped them similar to what I was doing but more detailed. 
im not chasing 100% perfection but I don’t like loading to 1.170 and heading up with 1.185 due to mixed head stamps. 
my old sorting method I would stay between 1.172 and 1.168

[Farmer]

The CBC will definitely change things. It’s thicker and tougher. Going by the volume chart helps keep velocity consistent. I have a few that I’m still checking to see how they compare with each other too. Some brands are made by the same companies too, ie Starline and Buffalo. 

[APL-G35]

All mixed head stamps won't give me that kind of OAL variance you describe.  The only time I ran into an issue like that was a slow lot of SWMP I had to fill cases so full some loads wouldn't compress well and OAL changed wildly like that.  Outside of that all load to +/-.003

[shred]

Yeah, unless you're having setback or compressed loads OAL should be set by the seater consistently to whatever it's set to.

 

[Sarge]

34 minutes ago, shred said:

Yeah, unless you're having setback or compressed loads OAL should be set by the seater consistently to whatever it's set to.

 

“Should be” But different headstamps definitely produce different oal

[Joel_x]

Thanks everyone for the input. 
 

I am looking for manufacturers of brass (by head stamp) that load similarly…..

 

i don’t want this to get highjacked into a debate of how “ I load mix head stamp range trash and my COAL is only .002 deviation “ lol I have been down that road and as stated I am not looking to make precision rifle rounds. 

If your setup runs that tight that’s awesome but I have not had such luck with 15,000 round on my xl750. 
 

as stated above I sort brass into a few groups. Document the BSD setting (micro adjust die) and smash out reliable rounds. I was trying to not spend a weekend finding the average setting for the BSD for every head stamp brass there is if someone had some insight or possibly does the same. 

 

[Sarge]

I have a few groups

CCI, Speer, blazer are all same

WIN

FC

RP

MISC wcc, starline, cbc,s&b, fcnt, etc

 

 

[Joel_x]

50 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I have a few groups

CCI, Speer, blazer are all same

WIN

FC

RP

MISC wcc, starline, cbc,s&b, fcnt, etc

 

 

Thanks Sarge! 

[shred]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

“Should be” But different headstamps definitely produce different oal

Hmm.. I've not noticed any significant OAL shifts in about 180,000 rounds of 9 loaded on mixed range pickup brass, but maybe I haven't found the right brass yet.

 

[zzt]

21 hours ago, Joel_x said:

im not chasing 100% perfection but I don’t like loading to 1.170 and heading up with 1.185 due to mixed head stamps. 

 

You have a press, seater or bullet shape variation problem, not a mixed HS problem.  I load minor 9mm in mixed HS, range pickup with plated RN bullets and have OAL variations of <,001".

[Joel_x]

9 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

You have a press, seater or bullet shape variation problem, not a mixed HS problem.  I load minor 9mm in mixed HS, range pickup with plated RN bullets and have OAL variations of <,001".

Ok guess I’m getting sucked in lol

I have been through this conversation multiple time with multiple people. If you can enlighten me on the resolution I will gladly fix it. I hate sorting brass but I get good results when I do. NEVER have I seen a .001 deviation. I load precision delta JHP that measure and weight almost exactly consistent. Load Major and minor. 
 

Xl750 , Redding competition nexgen dies. Micro adjust seating and crimp die. Have the needle bearing upgrade on shell plate. Placing bullets by hand.  Shell plate adjusted so there is little as possible wiggle but still rotate. Sizing and seating die adjusted to just kiss shell plate when ram is up. Ram head is tight with zero play. Tool head is a bolt down type from arminova. All brass is decapped and sized before cleaning. When loading the brass goes through a sizing die again just to keep the shell plate balanced. 
 

I would love to see a video of someone making sub .001” dev ammo and measure them as they come off the press for 50 round with mixed brass as some state. 
 

im only looking to achieve +- .005 (total dev of .010) as that’s what I have learned/was told is a achievable and expectable variation on mixed brass. 

[zzt]

5 hours ago, Joel_x said:

I would love to see a video of someone making sub .001” dev ammo and measure them as they come off the press for 50 round with mixed brass as some state. 

 

Okay.  I just went down and measured a random sample of 20 of my 9 major rounds.  Every one was between 1,162" and 1.163".  I load on a Hornady LnL with a case feeder and a bullet feeder.  I seat with a Hornady seater and crimp with a Lee FCD.  I use 115 HAP or Zero JHP bullets.  I do use fully processed, once fired, same HS brass for major.  I load with the sizing/decapping die removed.  I would never accept a +/- .005" deviation.

 

I load minor with mixed range pick up brass that has been roll sized and processed.  I don't sort anything.  The only brass I chuck is stepped brass, and then only if I catch it at the first station.  On the Hornady with Berry's plated, not more than .001 OAL difference.  With RMR plated seconds, I get as much as .002" variation.

 

Loading on a squishy Lee 6-pac pro with RMR JHPs, I mostly get a .001" variation when I operate the press correctly.  I get more if I don't get the stroke right.  There is no hard bottom at the end of the stroke.  I'll get 2 or 3% up to .004" under and the same for .005 over.  The press is new, so I'm still working on getting the setup perfect.

 

Again, it has to be you or something in your setup.  PD v2 JHPs are decent bullets, so I don't think they are the problem.  You might try changing your seating die stem.  I once had an OAL problem and changing the stem to a different profile cured it.  I'm out of the Zeros now, and HAPs are not available at anything approaching reasonable pricing.  I just received 4900 PD 115 v2 JHPs.  We'll see how that goes.  They have a rounded profile, instead of the truncated cone profile of the HAPs and Zeros.

 

Another thought, if you are crimping with a seater/crimp die, make sure the seater stem is way out of the picture.  I use an FCD for crimping all calibers, so that isn't a problem.

[Joel_x]

2 hours ago, zzt said:

 

Okay.  I just went down and measured a random sample of 20 of my 9 major rounds.  Every one was between 1,162" and 1.163".  I load on a Hornady LnL with a case feeder and a bullet feeder.  I seat with a Hornady seater and crimp with a Lee FCD.  I use 115 HAP or Zero JHP bullets.  I do use fully processed, once fired, same HS brass for major.  I load with the sizing/decapping die removed.  I would never accept a +/- .005" deviation.

 

I load minor with mixed range pick up brass that has been roll sized and processed.  I don't sort anything.  The only brass I chuck is stepped brass, and then only if I catch it at the first station.  On the Hornady with Berry's plated, not more than .001 OAL difference.  With RMR plated seconds, I get as much as .002" variation.

 

Loading on a squishy Lee 6-pac pro with RMR JHPs, I mostly get a .001" variation when I operate the press correctly.  I get more if I don't get the stroke right.  There is no hard bottom at the end of the stroke.  I'll get 2 or 3% up to .004" under and the same for .005 over.  The press is new, so I'm still working on getting the setup perfect.

 

Again, it has to be you or something in your setup.  PD v2 JHPs are decent bullets, so I don't think they are the problem.  You might try changing your seating die stem.  I once had an OAL problem and changing the stem to a different profile cured it.  I'm out of the Zeros now, and HAPs are not available at anything approaching reasonable pricing.  I just received 4900 PD 115 v2 JHPs.  We'll see how that goes.  They have a rounded profile, instead of the truncated cone profile of the HAPs and Zeros.

 

Another thought, if you are crimping with a seater/crimp die, make sure the seater stem is way out of the picture.  I use an FCD for crimping all calibers, so that isn't a problem.

seating and crimping are 2 different dies…. Seating stem contours well over the precision deltas. I even polished it last year to make sure it wasn’t sticking on bullet or something. 

[zzt]

1 hour ago, Joel_x said:

seating and crimping are 2 different dies…. Seating stem contours well over the precision deltas. I even polished it last year to make sure it wasn’t sticking on bullet or something. 

 

Seating stem 'contours well' over PDs doesn't mean anything.    If the PDs are as dimensionally accurate as you say, switch to a flat stem.  See what happens.  What is your crimp die?

[JRM83]

I sort into:

 

1. Stepped brass and CBC. The thicker walls of CBC brass cause coated projectiles to get swaged in my FCD and then fall out. Stepped brass is out for obv reasons.

 

2. Crimped brass. Without on-press swaging this isn't worth it. 

 

3. S&B. Tight primer pockets, can cause issues with seating and it takes longer to clear them then to just sort them out.

 

4. Everything else gets loaded.

Edited April 11 by JRM83

[Joel_x]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

 

Seating stem 'contours well' over PDs doesn't mean anything.    If the PDs are as dimensionally accurate as you say, switch to a flat stem.  See what happens.  What is your crimp die?

I have all reading dies. Nxgen competition carbide with micro adjust BSD and a Redding micro adjust crimp die. SSI alpha powder funnel. 
I only have the one stem for BSD. It’s tapered to “align” the bullet before seating. I have tried with and without the spring in the BSD. 

[lgh]

22 hours ago, zzt said:

You have a press, seater or bullet shape variation problem, not a mixed HS problem.

I agree with zzt. Double check everything on your press setup. Do you get big variance regardless of bullet? Again, you might try to find that thread from a few years ago where a lot of people weighed in on their experience. It was in the 9mm forum.

 

Hard to understand how some people "never" have big variances even when they run everything they pick up and others do have unacceptable variances - unless it's their press setup/technique.

[IHAVEGAS]

17 hours ago, zzt said:

I would never accept a +/- .005" deviation.

 

It would be interesting to select rounds 0.005 above and below target and see if you could tell any difference. I assume that something would be seen on the chrono but I don't know that a change to either feel or accuracy would be noticeable.  

[Joel_x]

7 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

It would be interesting to select rounds 0.005 above and below target and see if you could tell any difference. I assume that something would be seen on the chrono but I don't know that a change to either feel or accuracy would be noticeable.  

I would be beside my self to not have to sort brass for practice and local shooting lol

My ammo for locals is between 1.175 and 1.165. Practice some run up to 1.185 and I pull apart anything below 1.165.

Feel and accuracy is insignificantly changed in my experience. Chrono extreme spread is a little more but still makes PF. 
 

I have dies set up per Redding instructions. Sizer just touches shell plat. BSD just touches plate. Crimp is about 1/8 off plate so I can read micrometer. Flare is just enough to get bullet to not catch on case and crimp is very light to just get flair out. 
shell plate is as tight as I can make it and still have the plate index without resistance. And other xl750 recommendation or things to check I’ll give it a shot. I started to look further into seating stem last night as zzt suggested but didn’t get too far into it. 
 

press is a 2022 and has about 15,000 round through it