I Am Looking For High Performance Loads For 9mm Carbines..........

[Byron]

Dear Friends,

I am new to this forum, referred to you guys from my buds at Sixguns. The focus of that board for those who do not know is revolvers, mostly .45 and bigger.

If you can't stick your finger down the barrel and the bullet doesn't weight at least 350 grains, it is considered a small bore.

Regretfully, one of my favorite shooters is a 9mm Keltec folding carbine. This labels me as an outcast from the .500 shooters.

My quest is the optimum 9mm carbine load. At present, the absolute top load is the Hirternburg 124 gr. subgun load. It truely chronos at 1600 fps at 15' and runs the carbine perfectly. Accuracy is at good as many bolt action rifles. I desire to match this performance with a 124 gr JHP.

Reading your posts on making major 9mm I see lots of esoteric comments about dwell, dot movement, etc. You guys clearly have lots of experience on high end 9mm. These subjective variables do not interest me. I am looking for power and consistancy in a 9mm carbine.

I am looking for the absolute top performance for 9mm in carbines rated for unlimited use with buzz gun ammo.

At present the best performance is with Power Pistol. It will easily reach 1500 fps with a 124 gr Gold Dot and 1400 fps with a 147 gr Winchester JHP. This is with WW small rifle primers and WW brass.

Accuracy is good with both loads. Still, reaching 1500 with the 124 gr bullet requires 7.1 grains of Power Pistol which is in excess of the recommended load. Everything looks great but its still way over max based on the books.

Again, what powder is best for top end highly consistant loading for 9mm carbine ammo?

What is the top velocity that can realistly be reached with 124 and 147 gr bullets and 16" barrels?

I am a physician and a highly experienced reloader. I do not walk up on this level of pressure flat footed.

Thank you in advance.

Byron

[Alan Meek]

Byron,

Welcome to the forum.

If you have not found it yet here is a thread that has the majority of all data compiled by the other 9mm major shooters here. 9 Major Load Data

Also fell free to pm me ot ask any questions that you might have.

Alan Meek

[iainmcphersn]

+1 on the welcome.

With a carbine, some of the major nine loads should really rock. It sound like you know your way around the reloading bench. Are you getting any pressure signs with the loads you're using now? The 9mm carbine set up has intrigued me for sometime and I'd enjoy hearing your results.

John

[rishii]

Dear Friends,

Accuracy is good with both loads. Still, reaching 1500 with the 124 gr bullet requires 7.1 grains of Power Pistol which is in excess of the recommended load. Everything looks great but its still way over max based on the books.

Byron

Byron,

almost all 38 super & 9mm major loads we use are way over book max.

if you look at the major 9 load data, those guy are shooting them out a 5inch or shorter barrel, I don't know if there will be problems with pressure if you run those same load thru a carbine with a 16 inch barrel.

I got a 9mm carbine, and I never dreamed of trying major 9 ammo in it.

[revchuck]

Byron - If you're interested in trying another factory load that is pretty snappy, get some of the Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+. It makes Major from a 5" barrel.

[Alan Meek]

Byron,

Another note for comparison with my data....

I chronoed some Hirtenberger 124 +p+ and it ran at about 1330 FPS out of ny 4.5" 9mm Barrel.

I would suggest using slower the powders.

Alan

[Patrick Sweeney]

My hesitation in this quest is the nature of 9mm carbines. They are all simple blow-backs. You can reach a point where the bolt begins to move while pressure is too high, and cases will start to let go. In a normal application, blowing a case on a 35,000PSI load is messy. Going to 9mm Major requires something approaching 50,000PSI, which would be very messy indeed.

You're also pounding the mechanism a lot harder than its design limits. At the very least I'd look into a buffer os some kind, and perhaps even a heaveir recoil spring. (Although too heavy a spring can bring problems with impact force of the bullet on the feed ramp.)

Exercises like this remind me of a friend who managed to shoehorn a 302 V8 inot a Ford Ranger. Yes it was powerful, but the drivetrain and frame were not made for that kind of power.

[Byron]

My hesitation in this quest is the nature of 9mm carbines. They are all simple blow-backs. You can reach a point where the bolt begins to move while pressure is too high, and cases will start to let go. In a normal application, blowing a case on a 35,000PSI load is messy. Going to 9mm Major requires something approaching 50,000PSI, which would be very messy indeed.

You're also pounding the mechanism a lot harder than its design limits. At the very least I'd look into a buffer os some kind, and perhaps even a heaveir recoil spring. (Although too heavy a spring can bring problems with impact force of the bullet on the feed ramp.)

Exercises like this remind me of a friend who managed to shoehorn a 302 V8 inot a Ford Ranger. Yes it was powerful, but the drivetrain and frame were not made for that kind of power.

[spd522]

I have a MechTech upper in 45 ACP I use with a Para P14. I have chronoed several loads out of the Para and then the MechTech upper. All loads increased between 200-225 fps in the 16" barrelled MechTech.

I would think any of the several Major 9mm loads listed in this forum would be promising.

My personal loads of 7.4 Longshot or 7.8 HS6 with a 124 gr Star FMJ consistantly run about 1365 fps. If a similar increase were shown, you would be in the upper 1500 fps range in the carbine.

I have a Colt 9mm AR15. I guess I should chrono and compare some of my Major 9 loads between it and my Para Open gun. Might be interesting.

[gm iprod]

I have replied in your other topic about this.

Pat is mostly right, you must be very carefull with how LONG the pressure is going to be that high. The KelTec is a single shot, so blowback is less of an issue. What will be a problem is that even with Small Rifle Primers pressures will be high and a pierced primer is a possibility at higher than 35,000PSI for that period of time. There is not enough case capacity to make the bullets go really fast. And if you run lots of powder then pressures get nasty real fast.

Remember you are closest to the rifle when the brown stuff hits the fan.

[TBF]

Hodgdon LONGSHOT works really nice in my carbine loads for 45 and 40 S&W.

I push 165 Gr. Golden sabres 1450 in my PC4 ( 40 S&W ).

I have not loaded any 9MM with this powder yet.

My son has a Glock mag Kel -Tek which has problems feeding plated bullets of any variety, they sometimes hang up enough to cause bullet setback , even with what would be adequate case grip for most other firearms.

This is well worth investigating with other bullets and OAL's before you start pushing the envelope pressure wise.

Standard jacketed bullets run fine through this gun.

Travis F.

[shred]

FWIW, 38 Super Mech Techs will blow cases if you put IPSC major loads through them, especially with old brass. A friend did it twice (me, I got away with it a few times, then discovered that my 130 PF steel loads make IPSC rifle minor just fine in the M-T).

[kevin c]

Nine or Forty, Shred?

[shred]

38 Supercomp, the two I know of.

[eric nielsen]

Years ago a writer for American Handgunner [pretty good IPSC shooter, used to cover the Nationals] tried some Major Nine loads in his Uzi. This would be 1990, right when TGO and Voight were building the first P9 open guns. Everything in 1990 was an Open gun...

He blew the full-auto Uzi to smithereens using some of the same powders we use now. He tried W540, Viht 3n37, and AA#5. He went on & on about how Viht powders might be sensitive to low humidity [lived in Montana or thereabouts] which I think he was wrong to suspect. He kept saying oh, it's not the Uzi, look how strong the bolt is, etc.

So I'm pretty sure it was 3n37 that destroyed his gun & the whole time I'm thinking it's the open bolt of the full-auto Uzi with nothing but the spring to hold it shut. Just a guess...

[Harmon]

Power Pistol!

Im gonna order some of that hirtenberger stuff to shoot in my new pistol...

[Flexmoney]

Hmmm...

I have an Open glock that I run Major 9 in from time to time (124's and a slow powder).

I thought about getting a Mech-tech and running the same ammo. I am glad I looked in here first. I had some concerns about cycle speed and pressure, but I didn't realize that it could be this dangerous.

I bought some 108g bullets to try out in Steel Challenge with the Open glock. The idea being to keep the powder charge the same and just use a lighter bullet (didn't run the gun well at first attempt).

Any suggestions if I go the Mect-tech route? Lighter bullets (108's) and a faster powder (TG, HS6)???

[L9X25]

Flex, et al,

I also have a Mech Tech upper that I have used for local 3-Gun fun. As you might expect, I chambered it in 9x25 to use the same loads that I make for the pistol. My 115gr/N-105 loads that go ~1500fps in the pistol went 1900+ in the Mech Tech. I decided that I would see if I could get to 2200fps since the pressure was not that high and I had plenty of case capacity left. As I got past 2000fps, I noticed that the brass was barely bottle-necked. The cases were sliding out of the chamber while still under significant pressure and the neck was disappearing.

I tested N-110 and surprisingly did not achieve the velocity that the N-105 gave. I never ruptured a case with either powder, but I was very close with the N-105. The gun is perfectly safe with my major IPSC load and the brass looks the same as if out of a pistol.

Leo

[gm iprod]

Flex,

I use the followjng load in a Ruger PC9.

115gr JHP (Zero) 5.0gr Universal and get sbout 1450fps in the Carbine. The same load goes 1230 fps in a Glock 17.

Stay away from lead in my opinion. You can with careful loading and Small Rifle primers get 1500fps. A heavier bullet will give you rifle minor easier than a light weight.

If you want light recoil and fast powders look at 5.0gr flat of Tg and 100gr or 108gr the 108's run at about 1550fps in my carbine and with HS6 you should get just over 1600fps. Play with load length and crimp.

RM

[Flexmoney]

My bench only has two powders on it, TG and Vectan SP2 (when the SP2 is gone, I'll likely go with HS6).

Sounds like I might have to play around a little if I ever go with the Mech-tech.

[shred]

My bench only has two powders on it, TG and Vectan SP2 (when the SP2 is gone, I'll likely go with HS6).

Sounds like I might have to play around a little if I ever go with the Mech-tech.

5.2 of TG and a 121gr bullet in a Super case made rifle minor in mine, though my spreadsheet says 'a little dirty'. Same load goes about 140 PF in a pistol... slower powders do better in the M-T.

[johnhurd]

I chronoed some of my major 9 in my PCC 9 and they were doing 1880 FPS I only ran a test of 3 124 MG 8 gr TB