USPSA Scoring Question

[hermes_actual]

I'd like to hear how you would score this scenario:

 

One of two adjacent mini poppers is engaged. The round strikes the target and it falls. The round ricochets and strikes the other target which also falls. No additional rounds are fired.

[gng4life]

REF. Reshoot.

[Sarge]

Looks like it depends?

4.3.1.5

Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score.

Scoring metal targets which a

Range Officer deems to have fallen or overturned due to a shot on

the supporting apparatus or prematurely fallen or moved for any

reason will be treated as range

equipment failure

 

9.1.5.4

If a bullet strikes partially within the scoring area of a

cardboard

or

metal

target and

continues on to strike down or hit the scoring

area of another metal target, the subsequent metal target will also

count for score or penalty, as the case may be

Edited September 8, 2023 by Sarge

[gng4life]

This is specific to a ricochet. REF.

[hermes_actual]

 I thought REF also. NROI cited:

 

9.1.5.4  If a bullet strikes partially within the scoring area of a cardboard or metal target and continues on to strike down or hit the scoring area of another metal target, the subsequent metal target will also count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

[gng4life]

That rule is for when like poppers are stacked, like one in front of the other, then the bullet hits the edge of the front one. So it's a partial hit on that target, then the rest of the bullet strikes the metal target behind it, then it's a good hit on each (both must fall to score). A ricochet can not be counted for score. 

[Sarge]

46 minutes ago, gng4life said:

That rule is for when like poppers are stacked, like one in front of the other, then the bullet hits the edge of the front one. So it's a partial hit on that target, then the rest of the bullet strikes the metal target behind it, then it's a good hit on each (both must fall to score). A ricochet can not be counted for score. 

What rule says all of that? An edge hit can be a ricochet as well

Edited September 9, 2023 by Sarge

[Joe4d]

If its a full diameter hit on the first target its a REF on the second. Shoot throughs dont count.
only way it counts as two hits would be an edge hit and second target was kinda inline with first.

[gng4life]

33 minutes ago, Sarge said:

What rule says all of that? An edge hit can be a ricochet as well

An edge hit is a partial hit. A ricochet is a hitting an object, bouncing off, and continuing on. I don't want to split hairs on the term "ricochet" but we normally use full diameter, partial diameter, and misses. If it was a full diameter hit on the first popper, ricochets or bouncing off of it (as was described by the OP), then continues on to knock down anything or make a hole in a target/no-shoot, it would not count, right?  

[hermes_actual]

13 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

If its a full diameter hit on the first target its a REF on the second. Shoot throughs dont count.
only way it counts as two hits would be an edge hit and second target was kinda inline with first.

So I understand, a full diameter hit that strikes something afterwards is a ricochet and a partial diameter hit that does the same is not?

Edited September 9, 2023 by hermes_actual

[pjb45]

9.1.5.4

Why isn't this the deciding rule?

 

[RJH]

2 hours ago, pjb45 said:

9.1.5.4

Why isn't this the deciding rule?

 

 

I am pretty sure it is, it seems fairly clear

[IVC]

On 9/8/2023 at 5:43 PM, hermes_actual said:

So I understand, a full diameter hit that strikes something afterwards is a ricochet and a partial diameter hit that does the same is not?

No, the term "ricochet" is used in the rule book a few times in the same way as it's used in this thread, to denote the bulk of a bullet that is deflected (as opposed to fragments or jackets, which would be "splatter"). It has nothing to do with what the bullet hits or how it scores.

 

A partial hit on any target keeps the bullet in place for scoring (including penalties). What happens after a partial hit counts. A full hit on any target is "the end" for that bullet as far as scoring goes. So, if there is a full hit on a target, that bullet is out. If that bullet (ricochet) now hits another target, it doesn't count. But if that target is a popper and it falls, then it becomes a REF because the target is no longer available and it was dropped in an invalid way. The same as if you shot the popper through hard cover. 

[IVC]

On 9/9/2023 at 11:56 AM, pjb45 said:

9.1.5.4

Why isn't this the deciding rule?

 

It is, but only if it's a partial hit. It's not clear from the OP whether it was a partial or a full hit. 

[IVC]

Even if it's a partial hit and the popper counts, there is rule 9.5.7 that requires at least one shot at each target. If this happened to me, I would take one quick shot at the fallen popper, just in case it was a partial hit and I can claim the score without incurring a FTSAT. 

[Schutzenmeister]

1 minute ago, IVC said:

Even if it's a partial hit and the popper counts, there is rule 9.5.7 that requires at least one shot at each target. If this happened to me, I would take one quick shot at the fallen popper, just in case it was a partial hit and I can claim the score without incurring a FTSAT. 

Not quite correct ...

 

Assume 2 paper targets overlapping.  1 round is fired at the combined array.  It strikes the non scoring line in such a way that it counts for score on BOTH targets.  You score both targets accordingly.

 

WHICH target would one consider he did NOT shoot at?  Hint ... If there's a scoring hit on a target you cannot make a credible argument for FTSA for either target, regardless of number of shots fired.

[hermes_actual]

The shot was ruled a partial hit on the first popper and both targets were scored as hits. DNROI supported the call. Here’s the video:

 

https://youtube.com/shorts/YqqsHsxmJho?feature=shared

 

I assume the RO saw the partial hit since the poppers weren’t painted. 

[IVC]

4 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

If there's a scoring hit on a target you cannot make a credible argument for FTSA for either target, regardless of number of shots fired.

The rule 9.5.7 starts: "A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty..."

 

It requires to shoot at each scoring target with at least one round. It doesn't talk about hits or score, those are addressed elsewhere. In your example of two targets and one shot, did the competitor *shoot* at each one (different than whether the competitor *hit* each one)? The procedural penalty should be the same whether there was no hit, partial hit or full diameter hit on one of the targets as it's assessed based on what happened at the shooter location, not what happened at the target. 

[IVC]

4 hours ago, hermes_actual said:

The shot was ruled a partial hit on the first popper and both targets were scored as hits. DNROI supported the call. Here’s the video:

 

https://youtube.com/shorts/YqqsHsxmJho?feature=shared

 

I assume the RO saw the partial hit since the poppers weren’t painted. 

That's the correct call for partial hits and the total score, the question would only be whether 9.5.7 for FTSAT applies or not. 

[hermes_actual]

23 minutes ago, IVC said:

That's the correct call for partial hits and the total score, the question would only be whether 9.5.7 for FTSAT applies or not. 

It’s an interesting question. One could argue no FTSA as the target was made unavailable legally. Troy didn’t comment on an FTSA applying. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by hermes_actual

[Schutzenmeister]

6 hours ago, IVC said:

The rule 9.5.7 starts: "A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty..."

 

It requires to shoot at each scoring target with at least one round. It doesn't talk about hits or score, those are addressed elsewhere. In your example of two targets and one shot, did the competitor *shoot* at each one (different than whether the competitor *hit* each one)? The procedural penalty should be the same whether there was no hit, partial hit or full diameter hit on one of the targets as it's assessed based on what happened at the shooter location, not what happened at the target. 

When two targets overlap it is physically possible to shoot at both targets with one shot.  The rule doesn't say that one round can only be shot at one target.  In my example each target was shot at by one round ... It just happened to be the same round on both targets as evidenced by the hits.  

[IVC]

45 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

When two targets overlap it is physically possible to shoot at both targets with one shot.  The rule doesn't say that one round can only be shot at one target.  In my example each target was shot at by one round ... It just happened to be the same round on both targets as evidenced by the hits.  

Let's say the second popper didn't fall, but got hit in the same way. If we use your interpretation, is there a procedural for FTSAT? Is it grounds for calibration call?
 

What if the second popper doesn't get hit at all, can the competitor claim he shot at each target, he just used the same bullet? 

[pjb45]

9 hours ago, IVC said:

The rule 9.5.7 starts: "A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty..."

 

It requires to shoot at each scoring target with at least one round. It doesn't talk about hits or score, those are addressed elsewhere. In your example of two targets and one shot, did the competitor *shoot* at each one (different than whether the competitor *hit* each one)? The procedural penalty should be the same whether there was no hit, partial hit or full diameter hit on one of the targets as it's assessed based on what happened at the shooter location, not what happened at the target. 

Nice observation.

I did not see this situation coming.

I have seen a lot of shooters in 3G fire 1 round at the remaining targets as time runs out so as not get to get failure to fire at but will take a target not hit penalty. 

 

 

[Nathanb]

On 9/8/2023 at 5:47 PM, gng4life said:

REF. Reshoot.

End conversation

[broadside72]

On 9/16/2023 at 5:05 AM, Nathanb said:

End conversation

 

wrong. a partial hit on one where the remaining bullet continues on and hits the other is a valid shot. it's no different than scoring an edge hit on cardboard with overlapping targets and you split the perf