Rocky Mountain 3 Gun

[Religious Shooter]

Why don't they just make the loaded sidearm thing optional instead of making it mandatory?

I've been shooting for about 10 years now. After all that time I have had only one incident where a firearm has gone down on me --- due to a squib with a pistol. If your gear is good to begin with and you have kept up with its maintenance there is probably less than 2% chance that it will go teats up during a stage.

In all of your years of shooting... how many times have your firearms gone all kablooey while shooting a stage?

Make it optional... so all the people who don't want to carry one are closer to being happy ... and all the people who want to be tactical and see a benefit of running around with one will also be closer to being happy.

You have a more polarized state by making it mandatory.

[RiggerJJ]

Hey all! howdy from Afganistan!

As a RM3G RO, I am against the manditory "hot" carry of a pistol during all stages.

1. It adds another firearm to LAMR and UASC extending squad stage time.

2. As the RO on last year's stage 8, (shotgun at the mine) there were several targets up on the hill to the left that would not have been engageable with the pistol, as the rounds would not have had an impact backdrop. This would have "watered down" a great stage as the placement of the those targets would have had to be changed.

3. I don't feel that engaging a target designated as a rifle or shotgun target with a pistol relieves you of the failure to engage penalty. If targets are designated free style, that is a different story.

4.As an RO, it really scares me!

How about manditory carry of an unloaded pistol? If you want to transition to the pistol due to long gun failure, then the rules should state something like they use at the MGM Ironman, and only if the long gun is UNUSABLE or you are totally out of ammo, something akin to;

shooter: "request transition to pistol"

RO: "transition to pistol approved"

Of course the long gun must be abandon per rules as well. So does that mean we have to have SEVERAL abandonment boxes on each stage? And before you say it, IMHO, slinging a long gun SAFELY UNDER THE CLOCK (not sweeping the 180, ME the RO, the clipboard RO (My WIFE!), or yourself) is really, really, really hard to do. THEN and only then, you will be able to load your pistol and do your thing... quite a time burner and questionably an advantage to just taking your lumps for your long gun quiting (unless it quits on the first shot) or (duh!) running out of ammo.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for improving RM3G, but how can you "improve" the best 3 gun match of the year?

JJ

Edited January 11, 2006 by RiggerJJ

[01 Z06]

Hot pistol while doing agressive movements is a BAD idea. I understand your point on "TACTICAL" and all that. But this is just a game. Who is going to handled the lawsuit when someone inexperienced drops a loaded firearm and it goes off when hits the ground hitting the little kid ( Or You ) that was watching the stage being run? Big Lawsuit there, and I will guarantee you that you will never have a match there again after an incident like that.

Edited January 14, 2006 by 01 Z06

[Zak Smith]

when someone inexperienced drops a loaded firearm and it goes off when hits the ground hitting the little kid

Just like somebody can AD or drop their weapon(s) NOW. A pistol in hand is a lot easier to AD than one in another other than a POS holster (which should not be permitted by the stage RO anyway).

[SinistralRifleman]

to preclude all possibility of injury, I will be shooting nerf dart guns this year...will the one that runs on a belt of darts put me in open?

[scottmilk9]

Hot pistol while doing agressive movements is a BAD idea. I understand your point on "TACTICAL" and all that. But this is just a game. Who is going to handled the lawsuit when someone inexperienced drops a loaded firearm and it goes off when hits the ground hitting the little kid ( Or You ) that was watching the stage being run?

Has anyone ever seen a pistol go off when it hits the ground? I have dropped mine a few times in the house, when my hands were too full, trying to make one trip to the car. There are safety mechanisms in all guns, unless taken out by someone. Guns dont go off by themselves sir, you must pull the trigger to make it fire!!

[gl]

Talked to Blane and he said he really would like to be hot with the handguns on every stage, but he understands the concerns, so he said a handgun must be carried in every stage. But in non-handgun stages (those that the intent is for them to be shot solely with a rifle, shotgun or rifle and shotgun), and unless the stage description or RO states otherwise, it must be:

1) unloaded with the competitor carrying at least one loaded pistol mag available to reload with them

2) pistol can be loaded with the chamber empty and hammer down.

He made the comment that a handgun that is carried and unloaded is an expensive hammer....LOL! I thought that was funny. Visions of S-Is being used to drive 16 penny nails popped in my head. It reminded of me of my first SOF match when we had to roll under a barricade with a holstered pistol and a shotgun in our hands (the one that ended with shooting the pistol out of a bus.......a long time ago), the people with expensive handguns were screaming at that one. My Glock rear sight even got scratched a little, oh well it is plastic.

Any comments or concerns with this??

Also he stated that the original dates for the match stand!

If anyone has any other comments please post them, any feedback is worth considering, it is the shooters match. Anything here I am trying to forward to Blane.

Guy Hawkins

[George]

I agree that an unloaded pistol is a useless POS to carry, but I do wonder what is served by carrying the pistol at all unless it is to be actually used in the COF. I understand the cool factor carrying a pistol all the time has, but I see no value to the match itself being gained by this new rule ;-/

[Cactustactical]

Talked to Blane and he said he really would like to be hot with the handguns on every stage, but he understands the concerns, so he said a handgun must be carried in every stage. But in non-handgun stages (those that the intent is for them to be shot solely with a rifle, shotgun or rifle and shotgun), and unless the stage description or RO states otherwise, it must be:

1) unloaded with the competitor carrying at least one loaded pistol mag available to reload with them

2) pistol can be loaded with the chamber empty and hammer down.

Guy Hawkins

Guy, this appears to be a workable compromise. Those who are uncomfortable carrying a loaded handgun can choose not to and those who care to do so, can do so.

It looks like people new to 3 gun or whose experience is USPSA based don't recognize that this match grew up out of the old SOF match where this behavior was the norm. My thoughts would be, if someone has issues with this rule and their personal safety, they are always free not to attend. Given the increased popularity of the sport, there are plenty of USPSA rule based 3 gun matchs to sign up for.

My one question would be what if the RO has issues with this and declares something in the stage that is in contradiction with this match rule?

Edited January 15, 2006 by Cactustactical

[IanLock]

to preclude all possibility of injury, I will be shooting nerf dart guns this year...will the one that runs on a belt of darts put me in open?

Thats cool

If they have little suckers on the end will effect making major power factor?? at the chrono??

[Religious Shooter]

Has anyone ever seen a pistol go off when it hits the ground? I have dropped mine a few times in the house, when my hands were too full, trying to make one trip to the car. There are safety mechanisms in all guns, unless taken out by someone. Guns dont go off by themselves sir, you must pull the trigger to make it fire!!

Was your gun loaded when you dropped it? I hope you are just putting us on.

What kind of gun was it? Are you saying that a dropped gun can't go off?

I've never seen a fallen gun discharge. But it could be because I've seen only one loaded gun dropped (a G35) and the sample size is too small.

But dropped guns can discharge. It's why Colt (or whoever) came out with the Series 80 and why a lot of agencies have drop tests when they evaluate a firearm.

You also have take into consideration that a whole lot of competitors used 1911 type firearms which have stoned down hammer hooks. These 1911's also usually don't have Series 80 parts. Almost all of these guns with trigger jobs are more susceptible to going off as a result of a sharp external blow to the hammer or even a very jarring or shocking blow can cause the gun to go off.

A lot of times the gun will discharge due to the shooter trying to catch it and they inadvertantly hit the trigger. For example:

Deli Worker

http://www.ksat.com/news/4401642/detail.html

And sometimes they just go off when they hit the ground:

http://www.eagletribune.com/news/stories/20011224/NH_001.htm

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional...articleid=67667

http://www.claimrep.com/laws/cases/NJ/caseNJAlston.htm

1) unloaded with the competitor carrying at least one loaded pistol mag available to reload with them

2) pistol can be loaded with the chamber empty and hammer down.

I was about to suggest #2 --- "Israeli" or WWII carry. Though I would still prefer to have it optional I think that this would be an OK compromise for me. Edited January 16, 2006 by Religious Shooter

[scottmilk9]

Of course my gun was loaded, arent everyones? I dont make it a habit of dropping guns, but i did do and I admit it.

The gun was a glock21, .45 acp and it didnt go off, I am saying a dropped gun should not go off unless someone did some home gunsmithing to the safety/trigger group.

"A lot of times the gun will discharge due to the shooter trying to catch it and they inadvertantly hit the trigger" Hence my statement about guns going off when someone pulls the trigger.

I suppose the media is always the backbone of the truth and the people in question are so honest that they tell the media the truth.

To get back to the point of carrying a hot pistol, with an adequate holster there should be no worries.

[Religious Shooter]

[it looks like people new to 3 gun or whose experience is USPSA based don't recognize that this match grew up out of the old SOF match where this behavior was the norm.

Didn't the old SOF match have more stringent requirements when it came to holsters? Something that is missing in the current RM3G rules?

My thoughts would be, if someone has issues with this rule and their personal safety, they are always free not to attend. Given the increased popularity of the sport, there are plenty of USPSA rule based 3 gun matchs to sign up for.

Yah or they can keep the old rule in place and the people who have issue with it can continue and enjoy a great match.

[ccur]

actually, I have a friend who was carrying his clothes and his loaded Keltec back to the bedroom after a shower...dropped the pistol on a cement floor, it went off hitting him in the calf and he almost bled to death before the rescue squad arrived...he had the presence of mind to make a tourniquent out of his undershirt....so, little carry type guns DO go off when dropped..

Cheryl

[nm3gnr]

In a course of fire that does not involve the pistol to be used, I have no problem with slide forward, chamber empty, mag in firearm. To be used just in case. I don't care for locked and loaded going prone.

Anyway, none of this will keep me from attending RM3G 2006. just throwing in 2 cents while discussion is going on.

Guy, Thanks for the updates from Blane. Will be awaiting the apps to come out so we can all join again at Raton for some fun.

[SinistralRifleman]

I know Glocks are drop safe...a DPS officer dropped my loaded Glock 21 during a traffic stop

The Keltec P11 I used to have was drop safe too...don't trust those cheesy pocket clip things they sell for them.

[Larry White]

I think that if I was going under those rules I would put together 3 or 4 140mm mags for my G17.-----Larry

[Scout454]

"But dropped guns can discharge. It's why Colt (or whoever) came out with the Series 80 and why a lot of agencies have drop tests when they evaluate a firearm.

You also have take into consideration that a whole lot of competitors used 1911 type firearms which have stoned down hammer hooks. These 1911's also usually don't have Series 80 parts. Almost all of these guns with trigger jobs are more susceptible to going off as a result of a sharp external blow to the hammer or even a very jarring or shocking blow can cause the gun to go off."

The Series 80 parts (and the rediculous set up the Kimber uses now) are firing pin safety's. Period. No 1911 should ever be carried chamber loaded and hammer down. In 40 years of carring a 1911 I've dropped a series 70, cocked and locked, several times - twice on concrete. I've never had one go off.

Edited January 17, 2006 by Scout454

[Religious Shooter]

"But dropped guns can discharge. It's why Colt (or whoever) came out with the Series 80 and why a lot of agencies have drop tests when they evaluate a firearm.

You also have take into consideration that a whole lot of competitors used 1911 type firearms which have stoned down hammer hooks. These 1911's also usually don't have Series 80 parts. Almost all of these guns with trigger jobs are more susceptible to going off as a result of a sharp external blow to the hammer or even a very jarring or shocking blow can cause the gun to go off."

The Series 80 parts (and the rediculous set up the Kimber uses now) are firing pin safety's. Period. No 1911 should ever be carried chamber loaded and hammer down. In 40 years of carring a 1911 I've dropped a series 70, cocked and locked, several times - twice on concrete. I've never had one go off.

I don't know fully what you are getting at. Are you saying that S80 parts and the similar system in the Glock/Beretta/Tanfoglio/etc. don't help prevent guns from going off when dropped?

But yes the Series 80 parts is a firing pin safety. If the hammer falls without the trigger being pressed the S80 guns are designed to not go off as the firing pin is being prevented from going fully forward. A common reason given for the S80's existence is to prevent discharge when a gun is dropped.

To quote:

"The purpose of the firing pin block is to prevent the firing pin from moving forward unless the trigger is depressed. This "lawyer friendly" mechanism is supposed to prevent "accidental discharges" caused by dropping the pistol or catastrophic mechanical failures. "

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/s80fpb.htm

The Glock, Beretta 92/6 series, Tanfoglio, etc. use a similar system --- a spring powered plunger that prevents the firing pin from going forward unless it is disengaged via a fixture on the trigger bar (or whatever).

When you dropped your 1911 did it ever fall on the hammer? How light is the trigger on your 1911?

[MKuhn]

For what its worth

I can see the fear in having a charged sidearm on a stage when it is not in the course description, and it is another weapon to show clear.

Right now, in every day USA life, there are is a very large number of ordinary citizens carrying a loaded sidearm in holsters of some sort all the time. There has not been a rash of AD by drop that I am aware of.

None of the AD dropping incidences sited in this thread have been from a holstered handgun, excluding the cop who dropped the revolver and this is suspect seeing that it discharged twice.

If you think abought it, how many times have you, stood in a check out line behind a woman with a purse that may very well conceal (I hope there is) a loaded fire arm pointed back directly at you.

However, as a practical point carrying a cocked and locked pistol on ‘all’ stages may just complicate things.

Love you long time

Mell

[Helmut]

"We have nothing to Fear, but Fear itself"

You go MELL!

[Cactustactical]

Mel

+1

[Chuck Anderson]

While there haven't been a rash of AD's from dropped guns in normal life. I don't know many people that run around the New Mexico countryside, crawling and rolling and squirming into position.

[scottmilk9]

what if......just maybe they are gonna institute this rule to weed a few people that they don't want to participate in this match?

[Merlin Orr]

what if......just maybe they are gonna institute this rule to weed a few people that they don't want to participate in this match?

<insert slowly shaking head icon>