Canik Rival Magazine "Over-Insertion"

[jbell]

I just discovered this issue on my poly rival over the weekend.  I originally ran the gun for about 1,000 rounds with the factory magwell and a combination of stock baseplates and TF +4 baseplates with no issues at all.  Once I removed the magwell to get into USPSA I started having random slide locks during firing (not when reloading) but since I was trying to move fast I did not notice that it was the magazine itself causing the issue.  On Friday however, it happened again but this time I was just at the range with my son so I stopped and investigated the issue.  I have put in a request to Canik so we will see what they do.  For now, I'm putting the magwell on to see if that fixes it since I can't do any matches for 2 months anyway.

[WxGuy]

Thanks Chef!

 

We may have just found the problem with the mags.  Canik makes them!!  I think I'll modify a few more P226 mags and not worry about this "issue".  Time for them to look in the mirror.

 

So far, my Caniks have been 100%.  But, I'm not married to them.

Edited July 18, 2023 by WxGuy

[SufferInSilence]

I just got some of the new Henning pads today that are supposed to fix the issue.  
 

To be fair I’m not sure if mine had a problem to begin with (I sighted it in and it became a safe queen) but I did notice they had very little upward movement vs their original design.  
 

I think in the end we will see an overhaul of the mag release internal dimensions and some resizing of the retention slot on the magazines that should tighten up the tolerances.  

[SufferInSilence]

I’d also be interested to see how much of this issue is the perfect storm of bad timing in the guns recoil process.  

Think about it: 

When the slide goes back/open, a lot of force is yanking that mag in the path of least resistance (up).  
Coupled with the spring inside pushing/expanding up to feed ammo, and the nano second of bad timing is just enough to catch that breech face and hang it up.  
 

Tighter locking dimensions between the mag release and mag notch, a radius on the back corners of the mag, and/or and angle relief on the bottom of the breech face, would work it out.
 

 

[SufferInSilence]

On 7/6/2023 at 9:37 PM, hump said:

I have tried everything I can to over insert magazines in my Rival S and can't do it. I have forced them repeatedly but can't cause this issue. What am I missing?

Are you using aftermarket base pads? 
it doesn’t do it with the factory ones.  

[partyboy424]

This was pretty easy to test.  I just inserted a mag, pushed the gun bottom of the mag first onto a bench. While pushing down, released the slide lock and watched it hang up and not move.  Take the pressure off the bench and the slide drops.  The 215 rings work.  Those are 3.1ish mm thick.  Have 2.5mm coming tomorrow and 2.65 next week.  The 215s work, but I can see myself actually under inserting with them.  I’m sure a basepads will be designed to fix this as well as a mag catch. But right now.. can’t even find a rear site or aftermarket grips.  Such a new gun. 

[telligentgunner]

Shocker... after 8 weeks of being away for warranty service, my Rival-S still does not function properly. 

 

Even worse... MBX magazines for Caniks don't work in the gun.

 

 

I want a new gun.

[partyboy424]

Hopefully going to get to the range tomorrow to actually test function. But here’s dry results with the O-Rings.  
 

I shot a Steel Challenge match this weekend with only the 215 O-Rings.  Pretty much don’t even notice the O-rings. Except for the biggest issue was that even with downloaded mags, it feels like when you’re trying to load on a closed slide with a fully packed mag.  I hate that..  it’s not an issue in SC but I can see myself not using enough pressure running around a USPSA stage. Especially since I’m going to be shooting Production. So 15-20 reloads throughout the day, while RO’ng, in the heat. Just going to have a light reload from time to time. 
 

Pics of where I’m measuring from the top of the ejection port to the top of the mag lip. Now, can make the issue occur on stock mags, but really have to remain pressure on the bottom. With basepads and no O-Ring the mag actually gets stuck up too high so even without dropping the slide, pushing the mag release does nothing (on an empty mag, doubt it happens with one in the chamber. But still, shouldn’t happen at all). 
 

I’m confident someone makes a mag release that fixes this, talking about less than a millimeter lower to make it what appears to be %100 reliable.  Also, I have super old TP9 mags, Mec gar mags, brandy new Canik mags. Same results on all mags. 

[jpm2953]

4 minutes ago, partyboy424 said:

Hopefully going to get to the range tomorrow to actually test function. But here’s dry results with the O-Rings.  
 

I shot a Steel Challenge match this weekend with only the 215 O-Rings.  Pretty much don’t even notice the O-rings. Except for the biggest issue was that even with downloaded mags, it feels like when you’re trying to load on a closed slide with a fully packed mag.  I hate that..  it’s not an issue in SC but I can see myself not using enough pressure running around a USPSA stage. Especially since I’m going to be shooting Production. So 15-20 reloads throughout the day, while RO’ng, in the heat. Just going to have a light reload from time to time. 
 

Pics of where I’m measuring from the top of the ejection port to the top of the mag lip. Now, can make the issue occur on stock mags, but really have to remain pressure on the bottom. With basepads and no O-Ring the mag actually gets stuck up too high so even without dropping the slide, pushing the mag release does nothing (on an empty mag, doubt it happens with one in the chamber. But still, shouldn’t happen at all). 
 

I’m confident someone makes a mag release that fixes this, talking about less than a millimeter lower to make it what appears to be %100 reliable.  Also, I have super old TP9 mags, Mec gar mags, brandy new Canik mags. Same results on all mags. 

Just modify the top lips of the mags. That’s what I did. Problem solved. I filed, polished, reblued. You would never even tell by looking at them. 

[partyboy424]

9 minutes ago, jpm2953 said:

Just modify the top lips of the mags. That’s what I did. Problem solved. I filed, polished, reblued. You would never even tell by looking at them. 

Not against that eventually, but I have a TP9, thinking about getting a Mete and just don’t want to make a permanent mod quite yet on the only thing I’ll be interchanging between all of them. Just in case that leads to an issue in a different gun for some reason.  Probably will end up doing what you did if no one has a legit remedy by next season or Canik doesn’t have a fix.  

[WxGuy]

7 hours ago, jpm2953 said:

Just modify the top lips of the mags. That’s what I did. Problem solved. I filed, polished, reblued. You would never even tell by looking at them. 

I saw your pic a few responses up in the thread.  How much did you take off for the mag to properly function?  Or was it a file, insert for function, repeat process until it worked?  This is an easy solution.

[WxGuy]

My "slide jam" issue is the MBX followers sticking up too far and hitting the feed ramp keeping the slide from moving forward when the mag is empty in dry fire.  Loaded they are fine at the range.

[SufferInSilence]

1 hour ago, WxGuy said:

My "slide jam" issue is the MBX followers sticking up too far and hitting the feed ramp keeping the slide from moving forward when the mag is empty in dry fire.  Loaded they are fine at the range.

Yeah I just got the new Henning pads that address the over insertion issue.  They do the job but like you, the MBX followers I have binded on the slide until it grooved a channel through the follower and now it’s fine.  
 

wether that’s going to be good for the follower ling term will be seen…

[SufferInSilence]

10 hours ago, telligentgunner said:

Shocker... after 8 weeks of being away for warranty service, my Rival-S still does not function properly. 

 

Even worse... MBX magazines for Caniks don't work in the gun.

 

 

I want a new gun.

So I can assume that when everyone is sending these guns back to Canik, they are testing them with Canik factory mags/base pads which are “less” prone to doing this they change enough to make it a reliable mag dump or two and send it back.  

They're likely not addressing it with aftermarket mags or base pads because the warranty likely covers Canik OEM parts.  So, the issue will never likely be appropriately addressed.  
 

im going to test out the new Henning pads that just dropped this week and let y’all know.  
but, it’s totally unacceptable to have issues like this.  I’d “NEVER” rely on a gun that takes O-rings to make it run right.   

 

* I still think the issue is going to be solved with a chamfered cut at the bottom of the breech face that clears the mags feed lips and forces the mag back down as the slide closes.   
They can setup a machine for this and have folks mail in the slide only (no FFL needed) and mass fix the hell out if this. 

[partyboy424]

51 minutes ago, SufferInSilence said:

So I can assume that when everyone is sending these guns back to Canik, they are testing them with Canik factory mags/base pads which are “less” prone to doing this they change enough to make it a reliable mag dump or two and send it back.  

They're likely not addressing it with aftermarket mags or base pads because the warranty likely covers Canik OEM parts.  So, the issue will never likely be appropriately addressed.  
 

im going to test out the new Henning pads that just dropped this week and let y’all know.  
but, it’s totally unacceptable to have issues like this.  I’d “NEVER” rely on a gun that takes O-rings to make it run right.   

 

* I still think the issue is going to be solved with a chamfered cut at the bottom of the breech face that clears the mags feed lips and forces the mag back down as the slide closes.   
They can setup a machine for this and have folks mail in the slide only (no FFL needed) and mass fix the hell out if this. 

It’s an issue with stock mags and basepads as well. Canik and Mec gar. Just apply pressure to the bottom of the mag while releasing the slide and you should be able to recreate it. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by partyboy424

[Racinready300ex]

50 minutes ago, SufferInSilence said:

* I still think the issue is going to be solved with a chamfered cut at the bottom of the breech face that clears the mags feed lips and forces the mag back down as the slide closes.   
They can setup a machine for this and have folks mail in the slide only (no FFL needed) and mass fix the hell out if this. 

 

 

I have a new mete sf, and I'm pretty sure it has a cut sort of like you're describing. I've been meaning to look at it next to my rival because I thought it looked different but could be remembering wrong. 

 

Just now, partyboy424 said:

It’s an issue with stock mags and basepads as well. Canik and Mec gar. Just apply pressure to the bottom of the mag while releasing the slide and you should be able to recreate it. 

 

But, does it happen when you're shooting? I can force my plastic rival and mete sf to do it like you describe with factory mags but it's never happened while shooting. If I do a slide lock reload with a extended mag it'll over insert of both. 

 

Based on that I imagine every canik you can force this to happen with. 

[SufferInSilence]

@Racinready300ex yeah exactly.  If you shoot even a 2011 with the basepad on the table or prone off the mag, it will affect the gun’s operation.  In 2011s it makes the trigger pull harder as the bow now has resistance from the shoulder of the mag.  
 

But, having a gun that can’t/won’t operate under the best of conditions is crazy.   

[partyboy424]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

I have a new mete sf, and I'm pretty sure it has a cut sort of like you're describing. I've been meaning to look at it next to my rival because I thought it looked different but could be remembering wrong. 

 

 

But, does it happen when you're shooting? I can force my plastic rival and mete sf to do it like you describe with factory mags but it's never happened while shooting. If I do a slide lock reload with a extended mag it'll over insert of both. 

 

Based on that I imagine every canik you can force this to happen with. 

Even my S&W FPC does it.  It hasn’t happened to me yet, but saw it happen at a match this week with another Rival S.  I’m totally comfortable with the O-ring bandaid for now though. So really not worried about it.  If I had to list all the firearms I’ve modified to make reliable, I’d hit the character limit on here.  

[Racinready300ex]

27 minutes ago, partyboy424 said:

Even my S&W FPC does it.  It hasn’t happened to me yet, but saw it happen at a match this week with another Rival S.  I’m totally comfortable with the O-ring bandaid for now though. So really not worried about it.  If I had to list all the firearms I’ve modified to make reliable, I’d hit the character limit on here.  

 

The the Rival-S it seems to be happening when shooting, and that's a problem for sure. I'm just thinking the pushing up on a empty mag isn't the appropriate way to test and see if the problem is solved or not, since so many gun it can be forced that way but never cause issue while shooting. 

 

[partyboy424]

Little bit of an update.  Got to the range today,  threw about 300 rounds down range on a very dirty Rival.  I had the mag hang up the slide (not a slidelock hangup, but enough drag to prevent full battery even with an XP recoil spring) on 3 of the four O-ring setups (without applying pressure to the mag).  And surprisingly,  it wasn't the 3 thinnest.  It was the 1.5 and 2.5 together,  the 2 and 2.5 together and the 215 or basically 3.3 cross section O-ring.   The two 2.5's together ran flawlessly. Obviously you would think two 2.5s would be thicker than the other combos, but the way the O-rings stretch and flatten out,  the 3.3 should be thicker and feels way tighter to insert. 

 

Also,  this hang up only happened around midway through a full 18 round magazine.  So I think during recoil the mag is still getting sucked up.  Especially since it was happening on hotter ammo.  My puppy fart Fenix ammo ran with zero issue.  And for the first time,  all ammo ran with a stock recoil spring and a extra power spring,  even with the gun being ridiculously dirty.

 

So, I've got 5 more mags on order,  and I've started filing one of the mags.  I have a dremel, but don't really mind putting in the time to get the first mag really nailed down right.   Also, I tested these mags in my TP9DA.  With a ton of pressure on the bottom of the mag,  that will hang up as well.  It's no where near as bad as a Rival though.  I imagine, without literally forcing it,  I would have never found the issue.

Edited July 20, 2023 by partyboy424

[Racinready300ex]

10 hours ago, partyboy424 said:

 but enough drag to prevent full battery even with an XP recoil spring) on 3 of the four O-ring setups (without applying pressure to the mag). 

 

How far out of battery are we talking? Did you try to extract the round or just thump it into battery and fire. 

[partyboy424]

7 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

How far out of battery are we talking? Did you try to extract the round or just thump it into battery and fire. 

It’s almost not noticeable. It’s literally just enough out to leave a super light primer strike on the primer.  Once I knew how to recreate it I could definitely see it out of battery. 

[SufferInSilence]

Y’all also checkout these new Henning pads that just dropped this week.  They have these fins on the side that are supposed to fix this issue.  
I just bought two but have t hit ti the range to try them.  

[Racinready300ex]

17 hours ago, partyboy424 said:

It’s almost not noticeable. It’s literally just enough out to leave a super light primer strike on the primer.  Once I knew how to recreate it I could definitely see it out of battery. 

Have you checked the ammo plunks and spins in the chamber? That could just be a ammo thing.  

 

I just sent my sf barrel to get reamed. I'll probably do my rival after a couple majors I have coming. 

[partyboy424]

10 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Have you checked the ammo plunks and spins in the chamber? That could just be a ammo thing.  

 

I just sent my sf barrel to get reamed. I'll probably do my rival after a couple majors I have coming. 

Yeah luckily I don’t have a barrel issue.  Just this silly mag thing.  My TP9DA does it too, just about half as bad. So I’ve never noticed it.