Jake Di Vita Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Ok, this jam surfaced at Area 5 this past year, but I've been too ticked to deal with it until now. Brand new (about 1500 rounds through it max) Aftec, worked flawlessly for all the rounds previous to this. 9 major gun, tuned mags, all winchester headstamp brass. Gun was cleaned thoroughly. The jam: Brass is not even extracting out of the chamber. Being stuck in there (all the way) and you can see visible scratch marks from the extractor slipping off on the rim of the brass. Brass will always extract after the gun is racked. I have no clue what is causing this but it needs to get fixed as I have to bring this gun with me to the Columbus Cup in Feb. Comments, questions, suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike g Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 No fun too have a gun that doesn't work, no matter your skill level. You and I must be the in the minority of 9mm. "Aftec" problem people? Rad. Prec. Design responded to my post... he hit the nail on the head...Even though the firing pin retainer must be "radiused" my firing pin stop fit was sloppy, letting the extractor move back and forth. Sometime every thing was good but I would eventually have a "fail to extract " (but not with a round fully engaged as is your problem). I put in a hand fitted firing pin stop (EGW) and regular (EGW) extractor. I also use the EGW (Lee) 9mm undersized die. The only problem I have had since the change was when I used a 29 round SPS mag that had not been "tuned" Might be something too check... Hope this info is of some use? He had solutions to various problems of this nature. mike g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 (edited) Brass is not even extracting out of the chamber. Being stuck in there (all the way) and you can see visible scratch marks from the extractor slipping off on the rim of the brass. Brass will always extract after the gun is racked. Jake is the chamber polished? This sounds a bit like the case sticking to the chamber walls polishing the chamber may help. (Could be extractor tension/setup as previously discussed, just adding another possibility.) Edited December 10, 2005 by GuildSF4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19eleven Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Jake, I am no smith by any stretch. Hopefully one will jump in here and set me straight. But, assuming case dimensions, and this is a tuned extractor, it sounds to me like a tension issue.? Even though this is a new extractor, this is where I would start. Pull the top end, barrel out, place round under extractor to see if it holds it against the breachface. If you have another aftec,or new springs, swap them out and see if there is "any" difference between the two. Could be(for some reason) a weaker spring or two in the extractor. If you have a good fit between the firing pin stop and the extractor, clocking( slight rotation of the extractor) should not be the problem. Also, make sure there is no debris in the extractor tunnel. Slide racking vs live fire= much slower. Just my 2 cents worth Jake. Hope your match goes as planned. C'mon smiths out there. Straighten us out on this one. 19eleven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 (edited) The weird extraction problem that I had for about 2 weeks straight was with a Glock 9-Major, so that gun's external extractor is a little different than your Aftec. But my problem was not with tension - there was more than enough there. My problem was freedom of movement. Didn't see the real problem until I had the slide off the gun & I pressed on the extractor - repeatedly - with a flat screwdriver. Then I could see & feel the extractor move nicely out to max width, but not return to minimum width position quite as smoothly. Had to polish on the slide cut & the extractor until there was clearance for the extractor hook to move freely. ------------------------------------------------------------ Been told by Matt McLearn plus 2 more [good] gunsmiths that to get repeatable extraction and ejection on a 9-Major STI you need to have a .400 diameter breech face. Not so big a deal when changing from 38 super to 38supercomp, because the 38SC is a more forgiving cartridge with the way the 1911 cycles. The case leans on the chamber enough to run. But with the short 9x19 case you need everything very consistent which means the extractor fit to the firing pin stop as mentioned by others. Also a breechface that holds the left side of the case as it starts to extract, while the extractor pushes on the right side. Trap the case between a rock & a hard place, in other words. Some guns out there now are running with only the extractor on the right side, pushing on the CHAMBER WALL on the left side. With a tapered case only 19mm long sometimes there's a hiccup. Here's the original designs: 38 super case --- .401 diameter 38 super breech - .409 diameter tolerance = .008, left side radius = .004 9x19 case --- .392 diameter 9x19 breech - .400 diameter tolerance = .008, left side radius = .004 Some guns now trying to run: 9x19 case ----------- .392 diameter "9mm/Super" slide - .409 diameter tolerance = .017, left side radius = .0085 [too much for extra extractor tension to handle] Hope this helps [not an expert but this explanation made sense when told to me] Edited December 10, 2005 by eric nielsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Eric.. what you have found is what my two gunsmiths have said about setting up major 9...they both state the breechface dimension is critical it getting the gun setup properly. otherwise you may face the intermittent problem that will drive you crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted December 10, 2005 Author Share Posted December 10, 2005 Undersatndable, but why would the gun have just started making this malfunction after shooting 8000 rounds through it this season? Could the breechface dimensions change this dramatically from normal wear and tear? If that isn't it, what else could be the problem? Should I just try changing the springs and seeing what happens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 I vote springs since if it worked before something either wore out (spring) or broke. For the "broken" angle, inspect for chipped claw on extractor or the like. Another potential issue is brass wear but you probably aren't using over but just leaving it lay??. And your breechface didn't wear. Mine has 150K and look great. Brass doesnt wear steel. Flame leaking past a primer to a breech could wear it though but that's not the issue. I think springs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Undersatndable, but why would the gun have just started making this malfunction after shooting 8000 rounds through it this season? Could the breechface dimensions change this dramatically from normal wear and tear?If that isn't it, what else could be the problem? Should I just try changing the springs and seeing what happens? The breechface should not change significantly from shooting any amount of ammo. Could be you had a hairy edge issue, and now it has a problem. Does your old extractor still work? Try changing the springs in the Aftec see if it corrects this, try a tighter firing pin stop, have a smith check out your breechface dimensions and do reliability job on it... (I am deliberately going from least to more expensive...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 the breechface would only be an issue on setting up the gun..since it did work .. I would check out the extractor and FP stop...change out the springs in the extractor and check the claw..then I would check the fit of the extractor with the FP stop..if any movement or slop.. if still stumped..I would change out the extractor and try a std type extractor like an EGW or C&S one.. good luck...I hate these little headaches.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Jake, Sorry about your gun. I am glad you posted though, I learned something new. All those things mentioned sound like viable causes. Perhaps they are stacking up. So that, when the spring weaken a little, that is just enough to push things over the edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 All those things mentioned sound like viable causes. Perhaps they are stacking up. So that, when the spring weaken a little, that is just enough to push things over the edge. +1 1.5K is not enough to do anything but break in an Aftec spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Polish chamber & undercut the extractor hook. Does'nt make a difference between 9mm or super breachface. If set up right, either one work's good. Aftec's are cut stright at 90 degree's on the hook & need's help sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 It sounds somewhat like the gun is opening early, when the pressure is still too high to allow the extractor to work. Once the pressure has dropped, and you rack the slide, the case extracts normally. I would normally expect some firing pin wipe on the primer for early opening, but the high pressure may also be forcing the firing pin back so that it is not causing a wipe mark. A thought, anyhow. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpowe Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 You mentioned scratches on the brass. Are there any scratches on the beveled area ahead of the rim? They can indicate that the brass is hitting the nose of the extractor on firing set back, forcing the extractor away from the rim and allowing it to jump over the rim. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newguy Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 Jake, All of the above. You said the gun ran for 1,500 rounds but are you sure it's the right Aftec -- the one for the 9mm not the .38 super? If it's the right Aftec, try changing out the springs or running it with one spring. Did you try the original extractor? Change out recoil spring? Probably not related but the slide could be moving too quickly. Have you changed anything about the bullets? OAL, bullet lube, etc? I had a lot of extraction problems with open 9 that turned out to be bullet-related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin garcia Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 (edited) I inheritted Jake's problem. I bought his Open Gun. When I first got it, it had the same issue/s as stated in this thread. Failure to extract. I shot two local matches with real Failure To Extract problems. What I did so far: Worked on it as suggested by our good folks here in the Forum. I found out that the Firing Pin Stop is thinner than usual. I believe Jake dry fires a lot and my theory is he pretty much worn out the FP stop to it's current thickness :-} Got an oversized EGW FP Stop and tweaked it to appropriate tightness. Test fired after that and still had some FT Extract problems but much less than before. I followed another recommendation from another smith in this Forum about thinly filing the underside part of the AFTEC where it touches the extractor tunnel to add more tension. Tested it and now working fine. Shot a 110+ rounds match WITHOUT any Fail to extract problems. One stove pipe, which I attribute to another issue. Will try to shoot another local match to see if it remains consistent. Wish me luck! Edited February 5, 2006 by edwin garcia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue edge Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 sounds like your on the down hill slide good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin garcia Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 (edited) sounds like your on the down hill slide good luck i hope so. It looks like it's doing pretty good. Here's what it looks like now: Edited February 6, 2006 by edwin garcia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 I followed another recommendation from another smith in this Forum about thinly filing the underside part of the AFTEC where it touches the extractor tunnel to add more tension. Tested it and now working fine. That sounds similar to a problem I've had with 2 guns that aren't 1911 but sort of the same issue. Both a 9x21 EAA and a 9x19 open Glock had a little binding going on between the extractor and the slide cut around it. So it wasn't tension that was lacking, it was freedom of movement of the extractor. Got the parts moving freely & voila, no extraction failures. I never figured that could happen to a 1911/STI but maybe it can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Precision Designs Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 It feels great to see how the flow of communication works so well here. And, how it gets passed around to where it's needed eventually... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 7, 2006 Author Share Posted February 7, 2006 That's great news. I'm really glad you got the problems sorted out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now