Round Dumping And Reloading From Slide Lock Vs.

[JD45]

I don't believe that anyone advocates dumping a round. The fact that we have an unenforceable rule on the books is what bothers me.

I'm trying really hard to think of a rule in USPSA, or any shooting sport, that relies on the "honor system" and makes it hard for anyone other than the shooter to know if a penalty has occured.

Merlin, you posted before mine got there. You said it better than me.

Edited December 9, 2005 by JD45

[Crusher]

I'm trying really hard to think of a rule in USPSA, or any shooting sport, that relies on the "honor system" and makes it hard for anyone other than the shooter to know if a penalty has occured.

I know a few (myself included) who shoot IDPA (among other action pistol games) and CAN call their shots, unfortunatly we are not 100% reliable at CALLING SHOTS (maybe 95-98% but working to that magical 100%) and when we call a good hit as a bad one and make up that "good hit" we called as "bad" we can get questioned by some ALL KNOWING RO.

I have never been dinged by this "taking a DUMP" rule but have been questioned about 3 down 0 hits, and when I explain to the RO why I fired an extra round I am often met with comments like "well look for the holes in the targets next time" or "calling shots, how do you do that?"

[Gregg K]

Yep, I have never been able to call all of my shots. Still working on it. It's funny, I never had an SO complain when I shoot 3 zero downs on the last target in the stage. Better not do the exact same thing in the middle though.

[Clay1]

I have sent IDPA headquarters a link to this thread and have asked for direction on implementing the rules. How to tell the difference between a FTDR for round dumping and when a competitor is making up a shot in a Vickers count COF.

I will post their reply when I receive it.

Rick

[p99shooter]

Clay1, you're right in that you can't reload on the way to another array, but you can reload before you move to the next array, while still behind cover. That's what I was referring to.

[Chills1994]

Hi everybody,

Thanks for the replies so far! I didn't know it was going to be such a barn burner of a topic.

It was at an "IDPA style" Fight Night match, not a true IDPA sanctioned match, so the rules are a little looser.

Anyhoooo....thinking about all of the responses here, I think my beef is with the rule to retain an empty mag. It is, well, just plain dumb. There I said it.

For me on that stage at my current proficiency with a handgun in a "tactical scenario", it seemed faster to dump an extra round into T-3, go to slide lock, drop the mag, retrieve fresh mag, slam it home, hit the slide lock and get back into the "fight" on T4, et al all the while thinking it is stupid and slow to retain an empty mag....blah...blah...yada yada, you get the picture.

Without the mag retention rule, there is not as much incentive to round dump in order to go to slide lock.

IIRC, T3 was really close and had a non-threat stapled in front of it, pretty much requiring head shots. I think my three were so close together that only one paster was needed.

I did talk about round dumping with my fellow shooters before shooting that stage. No one, including the really good and experienced shooters, said anything to persuade me from doing anything differently.

And I didn't know that round dumping was so taboo in a regular IDPA match.

Of course, stage design and making things "Limited Vickers" count could curb round dumping tendencies.

Chills

_____

Note to self: come up with neat pronouncible acronymn for "round dumping in order to go to slide lock".

Edited December 9, 2005 by Chills1994

[oct_97]

As an old fart that cannot call his shots AND cannot see the holes left by a 9mm, I often shoot an extra shot. As a longtime RO trained by an IDPA Area Director I would be very hard pressed to ever call a FTDR, especially on anything less then an IDPA sanctioned match.

[postal]

i think some are missing the point of the rule

it is there to discourage round dumping, and is hardly ever enforced unless of course it is blatant, and then if it was not enforced then who would be to blame?

picture it at a big match, where everyone watching saw a diliberate violation of the rule

and most of the so's i know in this particular match would give you the "if this where a sanctioned match" speech, are in fact doing so to teach the rules, if in fact he where at a big match and did exactly as he described he very well may have received a penalty { i know the stage he did, and he did it at the key point to do it, and was open about it}

the particular match he is talking about is a weekly match ran as a "non sanctioned or non club match", rules are a bit more relaxed as to promote shooting in general, no cover required, no ftn unless you completely miss the target, while round dumping is not encouraged, fight night is not there do cram it down ones throat, it is a blast and really helps new shooter get involved in shooting sports

[Dan Mancini]

I'm staying out of this one.

Now that's funny!

Dan

[COF]

Chills, it's always a barn burner when there is an unpopular rule in discussion. Since I was there Tuesday night, I know what stage you're talking about.

I've never given an FTDR for dumping rounds simply because it is so difficult to determine. Like Dan said, the point of the rule is to discourage round dumping, and unless it's close enough to be blatent, it's hard to call, especially with a Vickers count stage. However, if a shooter was so unwise to talk about dumping rounds prior to the stage and then did it, it would make the PE a lot easier to hand out.

Jerry

[Chills1994]

Hey Jerry and Dan,

I talked about round dumping before I shot the stage, not to brag or be blatant about it.

I thought it was one of the accepted ways to game a stage.

Wow! What a can of worms I've opened.

Of course, let's not all thread drift into gaming vs. non-gaming. I've already done a search on round dumping and read a lot of gaming related posts.

Anyhoo... I didn't have anyone around me that said "Oh, yeah, that sounds like a good idea" OR "Oh NO! That's a bad idea because that's against IDPA rules and you shouldn't learn bad habits."

If I remember correctly, Steve was SO'ing that stage and he might have asked me some sorta question along the lines of "What are you thinking?" while I was loading up. And I replied with "I think round dumping is the order of the day."

Really, don't want to bring Steve into this, BTW. It doesn't matter and he probably won't remember either way.

He didn't say anything until after I shot it. Of course, if it was a real IDPA match caveat attached.

Now I know better.....There are other ways to have shot that stage, I have since figured out.

But I think you all are still missing my point:

If the rules weren't written in a way to force you to hold on to an empty mag while there's still one in a pipe, there'd be less incentive to round dump. The incentive in my mind is that a slide lock reload has got to be faster than a RWR.

Holding on to an empty mag is GAY!

I know the mag is empty and one is in the pipe, let me drop the mag without a penalty and reload, from behind cover, of course.

Later on, if the SO isn't that familiar with all the capacities of the different pistols shot in IDPA, he/she can figure out if the mag was empty after the stage is shot. If there's still ammo in the mag, the SO can tack on whatever penalty is required IAW with the rules.

Yes, I like fight night. Cameraderie is part of it. Trigger time, drawing, and movement under the clock is the other part.

It is nice that the rules are a little relaxed. It brings in new shooters to our sport, it makes them more familiar with the controls of their guns.

A big part of newbie jitters is knowing that you have something strapped to your hip that can maim and/or kill you or the people around, all by accident, and in a moment you'll be running around with it in your hands. So a less anal retentive atmosphere is not as stressful for the newbies.

Chills

[postal]

Now I know better.....

it doesn't matter how you got there, now you know

the important thing to remeber about this rule is everyone has to do it, so unless they are cheating there is no real handicap to it

[Scooter]

If you are going to dump rounds at least do it smartly.

1. Don't discuss it with anyone.

2. Don't dump the round before the reload. Dump the first round fired.

3. Don't dump the round on a really easy and close target.

4. Don't put 3x -0 hits on a two yard target. At least throw the first round off the target.

It's really pointless to dump rounds. The time it takes to dump the round is pretty hard to make up if all you are doing are slide lock reloads.

In the stage that you described, you will be slower by dumping the extra round. The extra shot fired will be longer than the additional time it takes on the transistion. Here's how I came to that conclusion assuming you can shoot splits of .20 and transitions of .35 and slide lock reload 1.50.

Well start the time after the second shot on T3.

Dump round:

T3 time -

dump round .20

Reload/T4 1st shot 1.50

T4 2nd shot .20

Total after second shot: 1.90 seconds.

No dump:

T3 time -

T4 1st shot .35

Reload/T4 2nd shot 1.50

Total: 1.85 seconds.

[Clay1]

A few more comments on this rule and this thread. If a game, any game has two rules that conflict with one another, I define those rules as poorly written. One such example might be the face valve conflict between comstock and round dumping. Another way to look at it is that the round dumping rule, modifies the comstock rule as in extra shots are OK except in this instance. This is for you to decide which school of thought you fall into. Having said the above, I look at this game as an excercise in solving the shooting challenge presented in the highest scoring manner.

Again, I wrote HQ but have not recieved a reply, as of yet. If they reply I will forward their answer.

Scooter, analysing a stage is a great way to look at total times. In your examples I am not following the math. In the first example (round dump) you add the extra split shot of .2 which I am fine with then you add another .2 for the 2nd shot on target. That 2nd shot needs to be shot whether you round dump or not. Both examples need 2 shots on target, round dump example should have a .2 extra to round dump. You will also have a transition either way so there is no difference between a round dump with the transiton to the next target and the transition without the round dump.

What will be different between the two examples is the extra split and the difference between a slide lock reload and a RWR. So let's look at your example this way:

Round dump: .2 for the split plus 1.5 for the reload = 1.7

No round dump: No extra split but the RWR is over 2. seconds

You will have to put your own times in here, but a additional split with a slide lock reload will always be faster than a RWR.

Rick

[Scooter]

I am assuming doing slide lock reloads for both ways.

With round dumping: fire the two shots at T3, dumps last round, slide lock reload, two shots at T4.

Without dumping rounds: fire two shots at T3, fire first shot at T4, slide lock reload, fire second shot at T4.

There is no point to do RWR since you already have to do 2 reloads with a 8+1 gun on a 18 round stage.

[postal]

Well start the time after the second shot on T3.

Dump round:

T3 time -

dump round .20

Reload/T4 1st shot 1.50

T4 2nd shot .20

Total after second shot: 1.90 seconds.

No dump:

T3 time -

T4 1st shot .35

Reload/T4 2nd shot 1.50

Total: 1.85 seconds.

very well explained, that's pretty much how i viewed it, and stated in my first reply in the thread, but not as well defined

[Chills1994]

Hey Clay,

Thanks for forwarding that to IDPA HQ.

I'm wondering how long it will take for them to respond and what their response will be.

Chills

_____

Holding on to an empty mag long enough to stow it in a pocket is STUPID!

[Clay1]

I wonder how long it will take to get a response as well. Nothing yet, but this is the weekend and there is probably no one in the office. I would think that I would have an answer within a week. If not I will be pretty disappointed.

Rick

[Mark Perez]

I wonder how long it will take to get a response as well. Nothing yet, but this is the weekend and there is probably no one in the office. I would think that I would have an answer within a week. If not I will be pretty disappointed.

Rick

Clay1,

start preparing yourself now ..

fwiw ,

I will NEVER give anyone a PE for round dumping during a "vickers-count" stage.

my 2 cents,

Mark

[GmanCdp]

you guys need to just come to the south to shoot.....ftdr????whats that??[just kidding] should be just throwed out of the book..if someone does something that bad....just tell them to stop and bag their gun [at that time,not 2 days later]...dumping rounds?? make every stage a limited stage,then after 2 months see how many shooters show up.....real life is not limited..games are real... not limited....

just set up every stage with a manadatory reload between p1 and p2 and dont worry with it....we come to compete...you have a score card,you get a time,they tell you how many rounds per stage,how to shoot it,rules rules rules....some clubs i shot a you get dirty looks if you do a stage lets say in 12 sec with 6 points down and the rest do it in 20-25 sec. with no points down..then you are a gamer.... you are expected to shoot a stage with 0 points down...do that for 5 stages...and you turn into a master gamer....you wont have any freindly shooters at the end of the day....if you want to be tactical...it might take you 6 or 7 hrs to do 10 shooters for 1 or 2 stages...how long would that last....this is a game....if you can dump some rnds then do it ...OR lets make every stage division specific...if a quickie stage has 3 targets,then cdp shooters are required 3 rnds each,esp/ssp shooters only 2 rnds each...esp and ssp shooters would be 3,3,5 or 4,4,3and the shooter must tell the SO how he is going to shoot it.... everybody must end at slide lock...

[Clay1]

Wrote IDPA on this one on Dec 10th. No response to my email was ever recieved. I said that I would follow up when I recieved a response.

So much for IDPA addressing a simple question.

I want to note that I do shoot IDPA, I am an SO and am interested in a sincere reply to a serious question.

Rick

[Duane Thomas]

Maybe they were having holidays. Maybe they have a backlog of questions. Maybe they don't feel the need to reply to a question that's already covered definitively in the Rule Book. I mean, what could they tell you that's not already there? "Read page so-and-so, it's there in black-and-white"? They say that round dumping is illegal. They say it's very hard to prove. What else can they say? What more do you want? Please understand, I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I just don't see why you feel the need to get a "clarification" from HQ.

[Clay1]

Duane, again I am an IDPA shooter and I don't like all of the normal IDPA bashing that is so popular. I was looking for a case when you would or could award someone a round dumping penalty on a Vickers count COF.

I'm of the opinion that you can't unless you are a mind reader. I guess you could if you asked the person if they dumped the round to get a better spot for a reload. If they said they did, then yes, you could apply a penalty. There is no other sport, that I know of, that the official asks you did you commit a penalty and then the penalty is given or not given in response to your answer.

I just wanted to hear their reasoning on this one. They could have been busy, but three weeks was more than enough time to respond. If they do still respond, I will forward that info, but at this point I have given up on getting an answer.

Rick

[Duane Thomas]

I'm of the opinion that you can't unless you are a mind reader. I guess you could if you asked the person if they dumped the round to get a better spot for a reload. If they said they did, then yes, you could apply a penalty. There is no other sport, that I know of, that the official asks you did you commit a penalty and then the penalty is given or not given in response to your answer.

In this sense you could look at that as a flaw in the rules, because it's an area that absolutely depends on the honor of the participant. In order to get away with round dumping in IDPA, all you have to do is (1) cheat, (2) lie, and there's really not a damn thing they can do about it.

I do have to wonder how big a problem rounding is, in the overall scheme of things. To read comments on the Internet, you'd think it was common. Maybe in some places it is. Personally, I don't know a shooter who'd engage in such a deceitful practice. I started shooting IDPA in 1997. My IDPA # is 1127. I'm up to, let's see.....six state championships and I-don't-know-how-many club matches now. And in all that time I've seen exactly one person round dump. A brand-new shooter figured this was the perfect way to shoot a particular stage. When it was pointed out to him, politely, this was illegal, he was so embarrased that he made a public apology to everyone in the club, on the club web site the very next day. And that's the sum total of my experience of round dumping in IDPA.

[Clay1]

Thanks for the words of wisdom Duane from someone who has been there and done that. I appreciate the nice civil exchange in a world that isn't always so civil.

You're right in that most IDPA competitors are stand up people and don't try to cheat. Take care,

Rick