Scoring with no-shoot in front of scoring target

[jskd82]

I'm trying to figure out how scoring is done when there is a no-shoot target in front of a scoring target.  In the attached picture from the rule book, it shows some examples but I am confused by some of them.  Can someone explain how they are scored?  How is #3 & #6 not an A, NS but #4 is? also #1 & #8 doesn't score a delta?  I've read the rules and also tried to search for explanation on how a no-shoot is scored but most of the topics is very old and doesn't give me an answer.  Thanks for any help.

Edited July 22, 2022 by jskd82
correct term

[ChuckS]

Go read rule 9.1.5. It explains the superimposed targets.

 

[jskd82]

30 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Go read rule 9.1.5. It explains the superimposed targets.

 

Thanks, I seen that rule but isn't making sense to me.  They are showing in the example above that there are points being scored behind the no-shoot.

 

9.1.5 Impenetrable – The scoring areas of USPSA scoring targets and no-shoots are deemed to be impenetrable:

 

9.1.5.1 If a bullet strikes wholly within the scoring area of a cardboard target and continues on to strike the scoring area of another cardboard target, the hit on the subsequent cardboard target will USPSA Competition Rules January 2019 49 not count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

 

9.1.5.1.1 In accordance with Rule 9.1.5, the scoring areas of scoring targets and no-shoots are impenetrable. Whenever two targets (scoring and/or no-shoots) are in direct contact where one target directly overlaps part of another target, the area of the "under" target which is directly covered by the scoring area of the "over" target and its perforations is deemed to be non-existent.

Edited July 22, 2022 by jskd82
Change

[StefVanHauwe]

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

5 hours ago, jskd82 said:

 They are showing in the example above that there are points being scored behind the no-shoot. 

 

They are not.  This is very difficult (for me) to explain on line but very easy to explain in person with overlaid targets.

 

EDIT: I'll try to see if I can explain your examples.  #3 is C/NS because the A zone under the no shoot does not exist.  The bullet hole is touching the C zone directly to the left of the NS's perforated edge and also broke the NS's perforated edge.  #4 is an A/NS because even though the A zone under the NS does not exist, the A zone above the NS does.

 

9.1.5.1.1 is the key to the answer.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[llamasabound]

For 3 and 6, the scoring zone of the NS and the A line up perfectly (nice job setup crew!). The surface beyond the perforation doesn’t exist. The only scoring area available is a C. So C/NS.

 

For 1 and 8 there is no target available outside of the NS — the perforations overlap, and so there is no delta.

 

4 is an A because the bullet impact extends to or beyond the perforation, and the scoring zone *next to* the NS is an A on that facet.

 

You need to merge your understanding of scoring overlapping targets with your understanding of perforations.

[waktasz]

In an arrangement like this, pretend like the scoring target is like a hat that is sitting on top of the no shoot. All of the brown target behind the no shoot is effectively non-existant, so #3 and #6 can't be an A, there is no A zone behind the white target.

#4 is an A because it actually touches part of the exposed A zone

[motosapiens]

and remember, the non-scoring border (the part of the no-shoot outside the perf) essentially doesn't exist, so anything behind that border still counts. the part *inside* the border is considered impenetrable, so anything behind that part of the no-shoot doesn't exist.

[Blackstone45]

48 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

and remember, the non-scoring border (the part of the no-shoot outside the perf) essentially doesn't exist, so anything behind that border still counts. the part *inside* the border is considered impenetrable, so anything behind that part of the no-shoot doesn't exist.

Now that's interesting, I didn' tknow that

[jskd82]

7 hours ago, waktasz said:

In an arrangement like this, pretend like the scoring target is like a hat that is sitting on top of the no shoot. All of the brown target behind the no shoot is effectively non-existant, so #3 and #6 can't be an A, there is no A zone behind the white target.

#4 is an A because it actually touches part of the exposed A zone

Thanks for the explanation... so it only scores if the bullet hole it touching the perforation? in this case #4 get an A because it extends above the no shoot and is touching that perforation? 

[ddc]

1 hour ago, jskd82 said:

Thanks for the explanation... so it only scores if the bullet hole it touching the perforation? in this case #4 get an A because it extends above the no shoot and is touching that perforation? 

 

#4 does not extend above the perf.

#4 touches the perf.

Because it touches the perf it therefore touches whatever is behind the perf at that location.

The area behind the perf at that location is the A zone of the underlying target.

[jskd82]

2 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

#4 does not extend above the perf.

#4 touches the perf.

Because it touches the perf it therefore touches whatever is behind the perf at that location.

The area behind the perf at that location is the A zone of the underlying target.

Thanks I meant the A zone is extended above the perforation.  I think I understand now, thanks everyone!

[wharp]

Here is a good write-up from Jodi on a QOTM a while back that is relevant:  https://nroi.org/q-of-month-results/non-scoring-borders/#more-2859

 

Lots of other good info there also. 

[StefVanHauwe]