Single Stack Division, Major Or Minor?

[midvalleyshooter]

OK folks help me out here. In the Single stack division you can choose 8 rounds of major or 10 rounds of minor in your mags. Which will be best? Why?

Seems like major scoring would be a big advantage. But 10 round mags may mean less standing reloads.

Minor is really not that much of an advantage recoil wise since major is only 165, unlike 185 in the old days. Well OK 175 in the old days and 185 in the pre-historic ballistic pendalum era:)

So what is the best? Major? Minor???

Keith

[Merlin Orr]

IF I could find a 10 round mag that actually works I might try minor... But I can't. Between 8 major and 9 minor the capacity difference is not nearly enough to make it worth it. IMHO

[Alan Meek]

I think at Major matches that recognize the Provisional Division, shooting major will put you on the same playing field.

Local matches, is a different story that I think match design will dictate more as to which is the best to shoot on that given day.

JMHO

Alan

[MikeFoley]

IF I could find a 10 round mag that actually works I might try minor... But I can't. Between 8 major and 9 minor the capacity difference is not nearly enough to make it worth it. IMHO

I'm with Merlin on this one, and actually have contemplated it a great deal. I am shooting a .40 single stack and have several reliable 9 round mags, so 8+1 major keeps me using my mass produced Limited load, which BTW is also my revolver load, my steel challenge load, starting to get the picture? If I had a super or a 9, I would give minor a lot more consideration, but I have basically reduced it to this:

Shooting minor requires a higher percentage of Alphas when being scored against Major. If you are going to see what you need to to get all Alphas, then you won't need those 2 extra shots. The game is pretty much 8 round friendly as it stands, and many COFs allow targets from more than one position. Unless the COF is 10-11 rounds, 18-21 rounds, or 26-31 rounds, you aren't even eliminating a reload. Most reloads will need to be performed after 8 and before 11 anyway.

Unless you have one that you want to shoot, or don't trust yourself not to miss, there is no big advantage to minor over major given the only difference being 2 rounds of additional capacity per magazine. If you are not proficient at shooting steel, then minor may make you more secure, but not as secure as learning to shoot steel. A lot of us put 21 rounds in our limited guns, even though we reload after 16. Revolver shooters know the importance of a good shot call more than anyone. IMO

Edited December 2, 2005 by fomeister

[Carmoney]

Very interesting question and some thoughtful responses so far....I'm looking forward to hearing more opinions on this topic from everyone!

Looking at most of the dedicated single stack matches out there, it appears most of them have been set up to ensure that 10+1 would not create any untoward advantage over the .40/.45s that most people own and shoot. However, in the routine USPSA match, local or major, it appears that 10+1 would allow the shooter to eliminate one or two standing reloads, even for the reliable steel-shooter. That's enough of a time advantage to make things interesting, even with offset of minor scoring.

I've thought about this quite a bit, and am intrigued enough with the idea that I traded off one of my nice hunting shotguns last weekend for a .38 Super single-stack. Shot a match with it the next day and really, really liked how it worked out. Talk about a comfortable, pleasant gun to shoot!

I think for me it may be a pretty close call.....and perhaps somewhat match dependent....I've always shot a .45 in single stack matches, but I'm definitely going to keep my options open and keep experimenting with the minor option.

(Speaking of revolver, I think USPSA should take this same concept into revolver division and allow 7- and 8-shot revolvers to compete, but scored minor only......again, I'll bet it would be a close call for most.)

Mike

[spook]

What surprized me is the results of the World Shoot. Generally, people agree that Production shooters have to shoot more Alphas than Standard shooters, because of their minor scoring. But when I looked at the results of the last WS, I saw that the top in PD and the top in SD shot the same amount of A's, C's and D's (and mikes , PT's and procedurals).

Apparently, there's a definate points disadvantage in shooting minor. By that, I mean that it takes too much time to keep up (points wise) with shooting major. The only advantage may be capacity, but you will have to be a lot faster to make up the difference in points.

I would go for major.

[Carmoney]

Unless the COF is 10-11 rounds, 18-21 rounds, or 26-31 rounds, you aren't even eliminating a reload.

I shot a USPSA area match earlier in the year where 6 out of 10 stages had minimum rount counts that fell right into these groupings! A potential savings of 6 reloads across a 10-stage match would be well worth the minor scoring penalty.

Then again the other area match I shot had only 2 out of 11 stages that fit the description. In that situation I would probably go with major.

So I guess my prediction is that if single-stack becomes a bona fide division at bigger matches, there will be lots of noise from single-stack shooters clamoring for stage descriptions ahead of time, so they know which gun to bring!

[MikeFoley]

Great research Carmoney, now you got me going through my match booklets from this year doing the same thing. If those reloads were all standing, you are talking about 6 seconds or more for most shooters in the match. Another good exercise may be to see how that would have impacted the match winner in the 6 of 10 match by adding a second to his time on those stages assuming all other points and times were equal, but that is way more HF calculation than I am willing to do.

Now assuming a 19 round COF, worth 95 points that can be shot in 9.5 seconds without the extra reload, with each shooter scoring 6 C hits, the major shooter would have 89 points in 10.5 or 8.48HF, while the minor shooter would have 83 points in 9.5 or 8.74HF. That is 3% advantage to the minor shooter even with the same hits and a 1 second reload, even with 1/3 C hits. Now if that same COF took 14/15 seconds with the same hits, then they would both have 5.93 hit factor, even up, add more time, and major will prevail. So it appears that we have a HF and points possible scenario to calculate for the stages to determine which gun to bring. This is possibly the most interesting thread yet on the SS provisional division, the gamer debate over PF, I like it! One last thing, steel COFs would be pretty even, and any long field course with partial targets would probably favor major PF.

Edited December 2, 2005 by fomeister

[midvalleyshooter]

Thanks for the replies and input guys. I have a Springfield 9mm I am going to shoot in SSD. But having shot some minor in the past I know major scoring is hard to beat, its like betting agaisnt the house The good old 45 may be the best choice

MVS

[blue edge]

Major for me, better for scoring & and it cost me 0 bucks!!!!

This is what I started with, time to go back to basics.

[Sam]

If I shoot in this division at all, I'll probably delare minor and just shoot the same 181 PF .45 loads and the same single-stack 10 round mags that I shot all last year in Limitied 10.

[Greg Jones]

If I shoot in this division at all, I'll probably delare minor and just shoot the same 181 PF .45 loads and the same single-stack 10 round mags that I shot all last year in Limitied 10.

You'll need to share with us how you get those 10-rounders to fit in the IPSC box!

[Sam]

Drats! I forgot about the box!

[Alan Meek]

from the provisional division rules posted on USPSA Provisional Rules

The pistol with empty magazine and any attached base pad, when inserted in the gun,

must fit in the standard IPSC box as presented in the current edition of the USPSA rule

book.

Magazines in this division must be of standard length, excluding base pads. No extended

magazines may be used. No modifications may be made to base pads to increase

magazine capacity.

Alan

[Bigbadaboom]

Since every other division that I shoot revolves around honing my "Limited Division" skills I am building a 9mm single-stack for this one. Shooting minor makes me concentrate on accuracy and I need that because I get lazy shooting Limited major and tend to pull of the shot when I'm sure it will hit the target anywhere and not just the A-zone. Shooting Limited minor doesn't work because I still do it "Lazy" out of instinctive memory. Puting a differnet gun in my hand and changing the aspects of shooting a stage i.e. more reloads=different stage prep, no huge "Ice" mag-well to throw my mags into etc. helps my mind get around "throwing" bullets at the targets and helps me to remember to concetrate on accuracy. This worked when I shot Production for a while and then went back to Limited but after a couple of months I reverted back to "throwing" rounds. I broke my XD down to get the slide hard-chromed and it still sets that way. Life gets in the way too much. Sorry for the slight thread drift.

[Wideload]

It's already been said earlier but... keep it simple and shoot major -- already have the mags and the load in .45. This is the same load for my 1911 as well as the 625.

To begin playing in SSD, there is no additional magazines to buy, no new dies to buy or loads to work out.

[diver60540]

IF I could find a 10 round mag that actually works I might try minor... But I can't. Between 8 major and 9 minor the capacity difference is not nearly enough to make it worth it. IMHO

I'm with Merlin on this one, and actually have contemplated it a great deal. I am shooting a .40 single stack and have several reliable 9 round mags, so 8+1 major keeps me using my mass produced Limited load, which BTW is also my revolver load, my steel challenge load, starting to get the picture? If I had a super or a 9, I would give minor a lot more consideration, but I have basically reduced it to this:

Shooting minor requires a higher percentage of Alphas when being scored against Major. If you are going to see what you need to to get all Alphas, then you won't need those 2 extra shots. The game is pretty much 8 round friendly as it stands, and many COFs allow targets from more than one position. Unless the COF is 10-11 rounds, 18-21 rounds, or 26-31 rounds, you aren't even eliminating a reload. Most reloads will need to be performed after 8 and before 11 anyway.

Unless you have one that you want to shoot, or don't trust yourself not to miss, there is no big advantage to minor over major given the only difference being 2 rounds of additional capacity per magazine. If you are not proficient at shooting steel, then minor may make you more secure, but not as secure as learning to shoot steel. A lot of us put 21 rounds in our limited guns, even though we reload after 16. Revolver shooters know the importance of a good shot call more than anyone. IMO

hey there,

i'm a single stack shooter too, and have a new 40. what mags are you using that will hold and feed 9 rnds reliably? i'm struggling with the mag situation.

thanks in advance for any info that you might share

[Merlin Orr]

Diver

Major is limited to 8 rounds anyways. Load from a barney mag + 8 in the mag is all you can do. So, dependable 8 rnd mags are all you need..?

[MikeFoley]

Metalform 9-round 10mm mags hold and feed 9 for me, as do McCormick 10mm mags. MecGar will not function in my gun at the LAMR, but will run otherwise, and I avoid them for that reason.

[Sam]

What would John Wayne shoot?

Wa'll, I'm a thinkin' he'd a go for 8 BIG bullets, Pilgrim!

[dirtypool40]

It's already been said earlier but... keep it simple and shoot major -- already have the mags and the load in .45. This is the same load for my 1911 as well as the 625.

To begin playing in SSD, there is no additional magazines to buy, no new dies to buy or loads to work out.

I've got the same approach except in .40

2001 era Springer SS loaded .40, lightly tuned. Wilson 8 round .45 mags, my same USPSA major load and leather gear. No changing over the press, just a slightly more conservative / deliberate approach to shooting the stages.

Besides, if I ever make up to Heinie's match again, I want to have a Spring in my hand, just in case

And YES, before anyone asks, we'll look at another one here once I settle in.

[midvalleyshooter]

Sam, JW favored the mouseload. Watch True Grit for evidence He utters the immortal words, "Too much gun".

For me on the major vs. minor, I have em both. Ammo availability will decide. Or maybe I will bring BOTH

K

[diver60540]

Diver

Major is limited to 8 rounds anyways. Load from a barney mag + 8 in the mag is all you can do. So, dependable 8 rnd mags are all you need..?

sorry Merlin; i sould have been more specific. i'd settle for 8 rounders that work all the time. i'd like to shoot the gun in SS & L10. it came with metalforms which are inconsistant at best. wilson 47D's hold 9, but want to lock the slide back after 7 have been fed. i suppose i could work the follower to clear the 40's slide stop better, but i am waiting for some tripp mags to arrive before i start canabalizing my 45 mags.

i was just looking for some advise on what you have found that works.

oh, the gun is a les baer premier II.

[Steve J]

IF I could find a 10 round mag that actually works I might try minor... But I can't. Between 8 major and 9 minor the capacity difference is not nearly enough to make it worth it. IMHO

I'm with Merlin on this one, and actually have contemplated it a great deal.

+1

[Mistral404]

I wanted to make a couple of observations.

1) I shot a number of Action Pistol matches with a couple of guys who used 9mm 1911s. Their times were significantly better than most of the people who shot major. One of the shooters is a B Limited USPSA shooter. He definitely shoots faster with a minor 9 mm than .40 major. His follow-up shots and transitions are much faster with minor v. major.

I am going to download some .40 to minor to see how they work out.

2) My Tripp mags are fantastic. I can get 9 rounds in the 8 rounders. They are sending me 4 ten round mags also. So I can play either in SS or L10. Not one problem with a couple hundred rounds through the mag and gun.

3) I took my new .40 single stack to the range but I forgot the Tripp mags. After swearing at myself for a moment or two, I took out one of my Wilson 10 rounders, pinched the lips around a 40 round in the mag to estimate the sizing of the lips. Loaded the mag and shot a couple hundred rounds with the "range modified" mag. No reliability issues whatsoever.