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If you see something, what is the proper etiquette?


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Not a safety issue but I observed a shooter shooting after me not step into the shooting area when he engaged the first set of targets.  The guys with the timer and scoring iPad missed it.  I debated saying something but being newer I didn’t want to come off petty.  Even though I was also guilty of the same infraction when i took my turn.  My error was rightfully noted as part of my overall score.  So is it appropriate for other shooters to point out a procedural issue or would that be in poor taste?  TIA.

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8 minutes ago, bababoris said:

Not a safety issue but I observed a shooter shooting after me not step into the shooting area when he engaged the first set of targets.  The guys with the timer and scoring iPad missed it.  I debated saying something but being newer I didn’t want to come off petty.  Even though I was also guilty of the same infraction when i took my turn.  My error was rightfully noted as part of my overall score.  So is it appropriate for other shooters to point out a procedural issue or would that be in poor taste?  TIA.

If your not the RO, scorekeeper or some other match official on that stage then it’s not your job, responsibility or concern 

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1 hour ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

If your not the RO, scorekeeper or some other match official on that stage then it’s not your job, responsibility or concern 

at a major match, that is true. at a local match where people are taking turns officiating and not as focused, our practice locally is to note those things and make sure the correct score is recorded. 

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Not trying to sound "zen" or anything, but when you feel comfortable become an RO and then be sure to be more observant and not miss stuff like that. What sometimes happens is that you become a good RO, then someone else does, then pretty soon there's a solid crew of good ROs at a club, and stuff like your story happens less often

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27 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

at a major match, that is true. at a local match where people are taking turns officiating and not as focused, our practice locally is to note those things and make sure the correct score is recorded. 

Doesn’t matter what type of match it is.  If your not the RO at the time or the scorekeeper then it’s not your job to say “hey so an so did this or that”     Tell the competitor after the stage is over. There’s no need to throw them under the bus so to speak.  

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My opinion only: if you’re a “new shooter,” I might have gone up to the RO with the shooter in ear shot and said, “I’m new and I’m trying to learn. This is what I saw…”. Then let whatever happens happen. There isn’t really a hard fast etiquette for this. However, from an interpersonal point of view, you don’t want to become known as the squad snitch. I’m assuming that this was a local (level I) so the ROs might not be that experienced or even certified. Any input from the peanut gallery should be taken assuming good intent.

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33 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

at a major match, that is true. at a local match where people are taking turns officiating and not as focused, our practice locally is to note those things and make sure the correct score is recorded. 

I’ll say this. If another competitor told me someone had a foot fault or some other procedural and I or the scorekeeper didn’t see it I’m not gonna give them a procedural.   That competitor that saw the violation should pull the other person to the side tell them what they saw and tell them they got lucky and to be more aware next time.  

 

5 minutes ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

Doesn’t matter what type of match it is.  If your not the RO at the time or the scorekeeper then it’s not your job to say “hey so an so did this or that”     Tell the competitor after the stage is over. There’s no need to throw them under the bus so to speak.  

 

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1 minute ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

Doesn’t matter what type of match it is.  If your not the RO at the time or the scorekeeper then it’s not your job to say “hey so an so did this or that”     Tell the competitor after the stage is over. There’s no need to throw them under the bus so to speak.  

I don't think getting your correct score recorded is being 'thrown under the bus'. I don't know any respectable competitor who wants anything other than his correct score recorded. I do know a couple of douche-nozzles who don't mind getting away with stuff tho.

 

However, I also wouldn't blame a new guy for not wanting to get off on the wrong foot. In that case, I might just mention it to the shooter quietly.

 

I can guarantee you if something like happened among the better shooters where I shoot, someone would mention it and make sure it was recorded correctly. We all try to help each other out even if we're not holding the timer at that moment.

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1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

I don't think getting your correct score recorded is being 'thrown under the bus'. I don't know any respectable competitor who wants anything other than his correct score recorded. I do know a couple of douche-nozzles who don't mind getting away with stuff tho.

 

However, I also wouldn't blame a new guy for not wanting to get off on the wrong foot. In that case, I might just mention it to the shooter quietly.

 

I can guarantee you if something like happened among the better shooters where I shoot, someone would mention it and make sure it was recorded correctly. We all try to help each other out even if we're not holding the timer at that moment.

I don’t think your getting what I’m saying.   It’s not the correct procedure for another competitor to tell the RO or scorekeeper what another competitor did.   Wether it’s a local level match or higher.    The RO and scorekeeper are the ones in charge and if they didn’t witness it then it didn’t happen as far as I’m concerned.     I think it’s a slippery path if we allow other competitors to dictate procedural penalties.   I myself would not give the shooter a procedural if someone else besides the scorekeeper told me they did something. 

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6 minutes ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

I don’t think your getting what I’m saying.   It’s not the correct procedure for another competitor to tell the RO or scorekeeper what another competitor did.   Wether it’s a local level match or higher.    The RO and scorekeeper are the ones in charge and if they didn’t witness it then it didn’t happen as far as I’m concerned.     I think it’s a slippery path if we allow other competitors to dictate procedural penalties.   I myself would not give the shooter a procedural if someone else besides the scorekeeper told me they did something. 

I get what you are saying, but where I shoot, we try to make sure the correct score is recorded, even if the temporary RO who just got handed the timer after topping off his mags is distracted and misses something, but the majority of good shooters at our club are certified RO's

 

Now when I'm working an Area or National match, I'm not going to take someone else's word for something like that. First because I don't know them, and second because we typically have at least 3 dedicated RO's who have a plan to run the stage and have divided up the responsibilities to make sure nothing gets missed. OTOH, at a local match, we have a guy who is in the hole and trying to hand off the timer to someone else who is hustling up after reloading his mags. Sometimes the scorekeeper is paying close attention, sometimes not.

Edited by motosapiens
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2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I get what you are saying, but where I shoot, we try to make sure the correct score is recorded, even if the temporary RO who just got handed the timer after topping off his mags is distracted and misses something, but the majority of good shooters at our club are certified RO's

I get that, but the correct score is the score that was input and witnessed by the RO and the scorekeeper that were in charge at that time.       If we allowed people to speak up and give procedurals it opens the door to issues IMO.    I’m not going to give someone a procedural off of someone else’s word.   To each their own tho.  The RO and the scorekeeper are the final judge in that situation and opinions may vary.  

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38 minutes ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

I get that, but the correct score is the score that was input and witnessed by the RO and the scorekeeper that were in charge at that time.       If we allowed people to speak up and give procedurals it opens the door to issues IMO.    I’m not going to give someone a procedural off of someone else’s word.   To each their own tho.  The RO and the scorekeeper are the final judge in that situation and opinions may vary.  

Would you point out a no shoot you hit if the RO missed it?

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41 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Would you point out a no shoot you hit if the RO missed it?

I almost hate to admit it, but I've done it a couple of times. Just couldn't help myself. If I hadn't, the shooter up next might have gotten dinged for my error.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Would you point out a no shoot you hit if the RO missed it?

I wouldn’t be happy about it but yea I would and have before.   Just like I’ve told an RO before that the Charlie he gave me was actually a delta and other scoring mistakes.    What does that have to do with another competitor saying hey so an so did this an y’all didn’t see it.    

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1 hour ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

    If we allowed people to speak up and give procedurals it opens the door to issues IMO.    I’m not going to give someone a procedural off of someone else’s word.   

Let me start by saying that I've only been shooting USPSA for about 9 months and I've been an RO for 2 months.

The above makes sense to me. You can't call penalties based on what the peanut gallery says.

However, many of the ROs at my local matches are new. Many went to the same RO class I did. Often, the score keeper isn't even an RO. I don't have a lot of experience. I'm not going to catch everything. If a far more experienced RO spots a procedural, even though he's not on the timer or the tablet, should I ignore him because the score keeper and I didn't see it? Honest question. 

 

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Even the best RO can miss things. The sport happens so fast that an infraction can occur in the blink of an eye. 

 

I’ve personally witnessed people (some of them sponsored) tell the RO about scoring mistakes when it lowers their own score.

 

Its a tough call to make; But most people are honest and I think if you witness something then tell the shooter before they sign off on their score. Then the onus is on them to correct it with the RO, if they choose not to, that’s on them too.

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21 minutes ago, JohnT-73401 said:

Let me start by saying that I've only been shooting USPSA for about 9 months and I've been an RO for 2 months.

The above makes sense to me. You can't call penalties based on what the peanut gallery says.

However, many of the ROs at my local matches are new. Many went to the same RO class I did. Often, the score keeper isn't even an RO. I don't have a lot of experience. I'm not going to catch everything. If a far more experienced RO spots a procedural, even though he's not on the timer or the tablet, should I ignore him because the score keeper and I didn't see it? Honest question. 

 

Peanut gallery?  I wasn’t there observing.  I was a competitor who maybe 7 min before got dinged for the same mistake.  
 

I think I got the guidance I was looking for.  Thanks everyone for your input.

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2 hours ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

I don’t think your getting what I’m saying.   It’s not the correct procedure for another competitor to tell the RO or scorekeeper what another competitor did.   Wether it’s a local level match or higher.    The RO and scorekeeper are the ones in charge and if they didn’t witness it then it didn’t happen as far as I’m concerned.     I think it’s a slippery path if we allow other competitors to dictate procedural penalties.   I myself would not give the shooter a procedural if someone else besides the scorekeeper told me they did something. 

 

I'm gonna have to go with this.  The exception is if the shooter confesses to something that will cost him points.

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1 hour ago, JohnT-73401 said:

Let me start by saying that I've only been shooting USPSA for about 9 months and I've been an RO for 2 months.

The above makes sense to me. You can't call penalties based on what the peanut gallery says.

However, many of the ROs at my local matches are new. Many went to the same RO class I did. Often, the score keeper isn't even an RO. I don't have a lot of experience. I'm not going to catch everything. If a far more experienced RO spots a procedural, even though he's not on the timer or the tablet, should I ignore him because the score keeper and I didn't see it? Honest question. 

 

If your the RO you can leave it up to your discretion.   I myself would not take the word of someone else for something like that. But that’s me.   I would however ask them what happened and when that way I can learn to watch for it. I would also speak to the competitor and see what they have to say about it.   If they admit to it then sure give them the penalty 

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1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

.

Its a tough call to make; But most people are honest and I think if you witness something then tell the shooter before they sign off on their score. Then the onus is on them to correct it with the RO, if they choose not to, that’s on them too.

i think this approach makes alot of sense, especially if you don’t know the people involved well.

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39 minutes ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

If your the RO you can leave it up to your discretion.   I myself would not take the word of someone else for something like that. But that’s me. 

i wouldn’t take the word of a random person but i would totally take the word of another RO or experienced competitor that i know and trust on the squad. sometimes i’ll see something close out of the corner of my eye and we’ll see if anyone had a better view. We’re all in this together.

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2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i wouldn’t take the word of a random person but i would totally take the word of another RO or experienced competitor that i know and trust on the squad. sometimes i’ll see something close out of the corner of my eye and we’ll see if anyone had a better view. We’re all in this together.

That’s fine if you want to do it that way.    I know there’s plenty of seasoned ROs on my squad some days.   Doesn’t mean just because they tell me something that I’m going to hit someone with a penalty that I as the RO didn’t see.       I might ask the person in question and ask the person who saw it for more details but it doesn’t mean I’ll give them the Penalty.  

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1 hour ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I'm gonna have to go with this.  The exception is if the shooter confesses to something that will cost him points.

People are going to have different opinions about it but that’s the proper way to run a stage.   The scorekeeper and the RO are the only ones in charge at that time.  No matter the level of match…

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5 hours ago, bababoris said:

Peanut gallery?  I wasn’t there observing.  I was a competitor who maybe 7 min before got dinged for the same mistake.  
 

I think I got the guidance I was looking for.  Thanks everyone for your input.

I wasn't referring to you by "peanut gallery." I asked a hypothetical question. 

 

Edited by JohnT-73401
grammar.
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