If you see something, what is the proper etiquette?

[motosapiens]

4 hours ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

People are going to have different opinions about it but that’s the proper way to run a stage.   The scorekeeper and the RO are the only ones in charge at that time.  No matter the level of match…

meh.... the proper way to run a stage is to give every shooter the score they earn, and not give out freebies at a local match because you are short-staffed and people are distracted. The whole problem can be solved if the RO's just pay attention, even if they are only doing the job for 3-4 shooters.

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

Just now, motosapiens said:

meh.... the proper way to run a stage is to give every shooter the score they earn, and not give out freebies at a local match because you are short-staffed and people are distracted. The whole problem can be solved if the RO's just pay attention, even if they are only doing the job for 3-4 shooters.

The people in charge of the score they earn is the RO and the scorekeeper…..     if they are distracted perhaps they shouldn’t be doing that job….    It’s not a freebie if they miss something.  It’s a screw up on their part.  Having someone else do their job isn’t the answer.      Another competitor should not have a say in the situation.     

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

The people in charge of the score they earn is the RO and the scorekeeper…..     if they are distracted perhaps they shouldn’t be doing that job….    It’s not a freebie if they miss something.  It’s a screw up on their part.  Having someone else do their job isn’t the answer.      Another competitor should not have a say in the situation.     

the person in charge of the score they earn is the shooter. If they get a freebie, it's unfair to every other shooter, and pretty close to cheating. Where I shoot, we try to make sure every competitor gets the correct score.

Edited April 11, 2022 by motosapiens

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

It doesn't bother me if you do that where you shoot. Where I shoot, we try to make sure every competitor gets the correct score.

If I’m the RO or scorekeeper I am making sure the competitors get the correct score.     Even if it’s another seasoned RO, if they aren’t on the job at that time I can’t take their view into account.     If I am not the RO or scorekeeper it’s not my job to say anything.    I get y’all run it that way but iirc from my RO class the only people allowed to call  procedurals or DQs are the RO and the scorekeeper in charge at that time… 

[JohnT-73401]

 

 

6 minutes ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

The people in charge of the score they earn is the RO and the scorekeeper…..     if they are distracted perhaps they shouldn’t be doing that job….    

Then how do you train new ROs, if said RO is expected to be perfect at the job right out the gate? Having a seasoned ARO on the tablet helps a lot, but that's not always the way things shake out. 

I don't expect anyone to hold my hand, but expecting perfection seems to be a little over the top, at least for a local club match with inexperienced ROs. That said, the RO is the one in charge. The RO has to make the final call. 

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

9 minutes ago, JohnT-73401 said:

 

 

Then how do you train new ROs, if said RO is expected to be perfect at the job right out the gate? Having a seasoned ARO on the tablet helps a lot, but that's not always the way things shake out. 

I don't expect anyone to hold my hand, but expecting perfection seems to be a little over the top, at least for a local club match with inexperienced ROs. That said, the RO is the one in charge. The RO has to make the final call. 

By watching learning and running the tablet and timer.   It takes time and making mistakes.   We learn by doing.   We will all still make mistakes sometimes.  But it’s not the other competitors job to tell us something.    They can say something like “hey man I think you should watch for foot faults right here” or something like that, or they can tell us about the infraction and we can speak to the competitor in question.      I never said the RO is supposed to be perfect out the gate, no one is perfect.  Everyone makes mistakes. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by OpenshooterAclass4lyfe

[JohnT-73401]

46 minutes ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

Bu watching learning and running the tablet and timer.   It takes time and making mistakes.   We learn by doing.   We will all still make mistakes sometimes.  But it’s not the other competitors job to tell us something.    They can say something like “hey man I think you should watch for foot faults right here” or something like that, or they can tell us about the infraction and we can speak to the competitor in question.      I never said the RO is supposed to be perfect out the gate, no one is perfect.  Everyone makes mistakes. 

That makes sense. I seem to remember during our RO class that an RO isn't supposed to call anything based on what another competitor has to say, because that competitor might be looking to sabotage the shooter. Fair enough. Still though, when pasting targets, I've pointed out a hit to a No-shoot target that the scoring RO walked past without noticing. I've pointed out an FTSA penalty to another RO, when it was obvious that the shooter never engaged the target. When asked, the shooter admitted to the FTSA. The intent wasn't to screw the shooter, but to get the proper score. I get what you're saying, though.

Edited April 11, 2022 by JohnT-73401

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

7 hours ago, JohnT-73401 said:

That makes sense. I seem to remember during our RO class that an RO isn't supposed to call anything based on what another competitor has to say, because that competitor might be looking to sabotage the shooter. Fair enough. Still though, when pasting targets, I've pointed out a hit to a No-shoot target that the scoring RO walked past without noticing. I've pointed out an FTSA penalty to another RO, when it was obvious that the shooter never engaged the target. When asked, the shooter admitted to the FTSA. The intent wasn't to screw the shooter, but to get the proper score. I get what you're saying, though.

Telling the RO there was a no shoot that didn’t get scored is kinda different tho right? Or saying, that’s not a alpha Charlie that’s 2 Charlie or that’s two alpha.    There’s physical evidence there that is presenting itself.   An ftsa penalty however is something that the RO or scorekeeper should of noticed during the COF.  And if they didn’t it usually gets asked “hey did you engage these?” And the shooter or someone else can chime in and the RO can use their discretion. The answers you get from the shooter will usually dictate the proper response .  “No I didn’t engage them, I don’t remember or yeah I shot at it but I just suck and missed it both times” 

Edited April 11, 2022 by OpenshooterAclass4lyfe

[Sarge]

8 hours ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

If I’m the RO or scorekeeper I am making sure the competitors get the correct score.     Even if it’s another seasoned RO, if they aren’t on the job at that time I can’t take their view into account.     If I am not the RO or scorekeeper it’s not my job to say anything.    I get y’all run it that way but iirc from my RO class the only people allowed to call  procedurals or DQs are the RO and the scorekeeper in charge at that time… 

So as an MD you are on deck and see a blatant DQ. You don’t call stop? You are on the hook if a shooter gets hurt or killed.

[Sarge]

Also remember the RO class is geared towards Level II and up in most cases. If I’m at an area match as an RO and Joe shmow says a shooter foot faulted I ask the other RO’s if they saw it. That’s all I do with shooter input. At a our locals half the shooters are RO’s with plenty of experience and a large number of us are seasoned CRO’s. If a shooter foot faults or shoots through a wall half the squad will bring it up. LOL

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

2 minutes ago, Sarge said:

So as an MD you are on deck and see a blatant DQ. You don’t call stop? You are on the hook if a shooter gets hurt or killed.

I’m a match official am I not?   I’m sometimes the rangemaster  unless I have a guy there that I trust to take the rangemaster position for me but with that said yes I’d yell “stop” if I saw something as a match official.   Kind of different would you not agree?      We have a match structure in uspsa for a reason.  The structure to the match is to ensure proper and consistent scoring throughout.   

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

Just now, Sarge said:

Also remember the RO class is geared towards Level II and up in most cases. If I’m at an area match as an RO and Joe shmow says a shooter foot faulted I ask the other RO’s if they saw it. That’s all I do with shooter input. At a our locals half the shooters are RO’s with plenty of experience and a large number of us are seasoned CRO’s. If a shooter foot faults or shoots through a wall half the squad will bring it up. LOL

I get that.  And that’s fine. People can run a local however they see fit.   I chose to run my locals as close to a high level match as much as possible.  

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

14 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Also remember the RO class is geared towards Level II and up in most cases. If I’m at an area match as an RO and Joe shmow says a shooter foot faulted I ask the other RO’s if they saw it. That’s all I do with shooter input. At a our locals half the shooters are RO’s with plenty of experience and a large number of us are seasoned CRO’s. If a shooter foot faults or shoots through a wall half the squad will bring it up. LOL

I would also like to add that in my RO class taught by Troy he said something that has stuck with me since that class.  To give a loose quote it was “All matches should be ran like a level 2 or up”.   How many times have you heard people say “it’s just a local”. That’s a terrible mentality to have.  Just because it’s a local doesn’t mean we can loosen up on the proper way to run things. 

[vluc]

20 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Also remember the RO class is geared towards Level II and up in most cases. If I’m at an area match as an RO and Joe shmow says a shooter foot faulted I ask the other RO’s if they saw it. That’s all I do with shooter input. At a our locals half the shooters are RO’s with plenty of experience and a large number of us are seasoned CRO’s. If a shooter foot faults or shoots through a wall half the squad will bring it up. LOL

 Exactly, the group of folks I regularly shoot with are a mixed bag of RO's, CRO's, MD's and RM's.  We all mention what we see.  How all of us get better.  I've seen other squads when waiting that also have RO's but they are not as "attentive" to their buddies.  New shooters on our squad get to see that there are no freebies.

[vluc]

5 minutes ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

I would also like to add that in my RO class taught by Troy he said something that has stuck with me since that class.  To give a loose quote it was “All matches should be ran like a level 2 or up”.   How many times have you heard people say “it’s just a local”. That’s a terrible mentality to have.  Just because it’s a local doesn’t mean we can loosen up on the proper way to run things. 

 

 

YES!  I hate the level 1 exemption crap, people not painting steel, other stuff like that.  We aren't helping anyone who may go to a higher level match for teh first time by letting anything slide.

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

30 minutes ago, vluc said:

 

 

YES!  I hate the level 1 exemption crap, people not painting steel, other stuff like that.  We aren't helping anyone who may go to a higher level match for teh first time by letting anything slide.

I’ve known some folks at other clubs to let DQ offenses slide simply because of the local match mentality.   It’s bad for the shooter and the sport.    Locals should be ran just like a major match. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by OpenshooterAclass4lyfe

[Sarge]

5 hours ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

  To give a loose quote it was “All matches should be ran like a level 2 or up”.   AS LONG AS THERE ARE LEVEL I EXEMPTIONS AND NO REQUIREMENTS FOR STAFF CERTIFICATION THAT WILL BE HARD TO MAKE HAPPEN.

  How many times have you heard people say “it’s just a local”. That’s a terrible mentality to have. 
I’VE HEARD IT, JUST NOT AROUND HERE MUCH.

 

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

14 minutes ago, Sarge said:

 

Just because there are exemptions in place and no requirements for certs it doesn’t mean we can’t still try our best to treat a local like a higher level match.    Maybe I’m just in the minority here but my matches are gonna have a couple of certified ROs on each squad and we’re not gonna go lax simply because it’s a local.   While it’s not exactly required it’s definitely recommended.  

[ltdmstr]

I think it's a good idea for the person who observed it to alert the RO and the shooter.  Both stand to benefit from knowing it's something they need to pay attention to and clearly are not.  Having said that, if the RO didn't see it, then I wouldn't change his score on the basis of what another competitor saw/said.  For the no-shoots, if the RO didn't see it, then point it out to them.  If they didn't see it and it got taped, then it shouldn't get scored.  I would also add there are issues like safety infractions where it's perfectly legit for another competitor to say something.  I happened to be shooting a L1 match last summer when someone was well down range with his camera filming while his buddy was shooting off to the side.  The ROs were focused on the shooter and didn't even notice the guy.