Lead Load's In A 25-2

[10mmdave]

Maybe this belongs on the reloading pages but I was afraid it would get lost over there.

I have a 25-2 that seems to "hang-up" while shooting a wheel full of lead topped ammo,

drop the moon clip in, spin the cylinder (some folks here are cringing right now ) and

start shooting and maybe on the third or forth rnd the trigger pull feels like I have a bent

clip in there ??

Chambers get pretty dirty real quick and now I know why Clymer sells that reamer for

wheel guns but what get's me is that a fresh moon clip drops in fine and spins free ?

Plated Westcoast 230's work fine by the way.

Never had this problem with my 610's and they all get shot with lead, same bullet maker

even ! From what Carmoney stated the gun does like plated better than lead for accuracy

and I plan on shooting only jacketed for matches but i was just wondering if any other 25-2

owners have had this problem.

(oh !! load is a 225 TCL over 4.5 grns of TG, Fed case, Fed primed)

[Carmoney]

Wonder if the bullets could be moving forward under recoil enough to push against the chamber ledge and press the whole moonclip back against the frame??

[AzShooter]

What powder and load are you using? Sometimes with a dirty powder you will experience the same problem you are using, especially with lead since the lube will produce more smoke and will some will stay in the cylinder.

If you are using Titegroup and light loads I have had this problem. With major loads it works fine.

Try a different powder like Clays, Bullseye or Solo 1000 and see what happens.

[Bill Sahlberg]

Alas, all the problems you mentioned we have all had, always throw out a bent full moon clip, these are only .25 cents. First of all used jacketed bullets as lead loads slower and builds up in both the cylinder and scrpes against the ejectors sharp edges. Secondly use a powder that burns 100% of itself and NEVER leaves any residual flakes under your ejector star. I use 230 gr Maontan Gold bullets , ONLY Federal Primers, and 4.5 gr of Bullseye IPSC major) In one post it mentioned not crimping your bullets tight enough allowing them to move forward....... I always crimp tight. I have tried Titegroup and Universal Clays in my 625s but neither burn 100%. (however in my .38 Colt Short the Univ Clays is best!) Jerry Miculek only shoots Bullseye and it must be for a reason, why try to reinvent the wheel?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

The responses so far come from those with a lot more experience than I have, but if you have a tight barrel to cylinder clearance and you get any build up from the lead/powder combo, you may have a case of cylinder hitting the forcing cone.

Had it happen on a PPC gun that was a little out of time.

Regards,

Gary

[10mmdave]

Man that was fast !?!?

Carmoney, checked the bullets for set-back or pull-out, no movement there. (shoot 4, pull

the clip, check crimp area, looks good)

I think crud is blowing past the ledge and pushing the case back. (I hate lead bullets)

AZshooter, The load is TiteGroup at 4.5 grains, haven't chronoed it yet but it feels heavier

than my 10mm titegroup load, I'll check that tonight.

Bill S, no, no bent moonclip, just feels like one, cyl. spins free before pulling the trigger,

(funny, cylinder spins free after shooting all 6 rnds too !) I get the Jacket vs. Lead part

but I'm looking at $$$ here. I'll have to try that 4.5 grns of Bullseye, I have some but not

'cuz Jerry uses it I have some of his grip's too, useless till I take my dremel to 'em

RGS, I may have to check that B/C gap, gun has maybe 1 or 2 thou endshake so I don't

think it's hitting, gun runs fine with the same powder charge and 230 Westcoast plated.

Thanks for the info guys.

[Carmoney]

Sam and I shot a whole lot of lead bullets through our .45 revolvers this year with no problems at all (other than a little smoke!) No functioning problems of any kind like you're having, Dave. I always shoot a moonclip or two full of jacketed stuff after a match to strip the lead out of the barrel, and I'm not afraid to use stainless brushes on the cylinder face, chambers, etc. to remove the lead and powder residue.

I do use a pretty heavy crimp. My IPSC load is 230 RNL over 4.1 gr. of straight Clays. Either gun can easily shoot a 2-day match without any cleaning or brushing.

I do not think your problem is typical, Dave. Something isn't quite right.

OK, I thought of one other thing....my old Baumannize custom M-27 I bought from Brian E. all those years ago has one chamber that's misaligned just enough that some types of lead bullets will shave just enough to leave a silvery lead smear on the cylinder face in a nice circle around that chamber....after several hundred rounds it will build up enough it starts to contact the back of the barrel and make the action feel sticky. It doesn't happen real bad with the 230-gr. "Lincoln Log" pin bullets, which is all I've regularly shot in the gun, so I never worried about it.

Probably not the same problem, Dave, but have you checked the front of the cylinder to see if you have the silver-colored build-up?

[pskys2]

It's the Titegroup powder. I've had the very same problem with Lead, Moly, Ranier's, and FMJ (exposed base). It's definitely worse if there is lead of any kind exposed to the powder charge. I haven't tried the Montana Gold CMJ's extensively, they didn't seem too bad in 100 rounds.

I was having your problem and also thought it was bent clips. Then I noticed the caking of residue on the Recoil Shield of my 625 wouldn't wipe off even with a Stainless Lead Cloth Wipe. It had to be chipped off. Clays residue wipes off with a normal rag, or even a finger.

Curiously my m29 that I use with .44 Russians doesn't have that problem, or at least it doesn't show up as quick. Though it also gets real hot with extended firing (see below).

I think it has to do with the composition of the powder and the intensity of the flame bonding with the slightly rougher texture of the Stainless. I also noticed this summer that at the end of a long field course (24+Rounds) the barrel would be so hot I couldn't touch it. During practice I'd have to stop and let it cool if I wanted to practice reloads.

So even though Titegroup seems a bit more accurate than clays, I won't use it in my 625 anymore, for matches at least.

Dave

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Man that was fast !?!?

AZshooter, The load is TiteGroup at 4.5 grains, haven't chronoed it yet but it feels heavier

than my 10mm titegroup load, I'll check that tonight.

SNIP

RGS, I may have to check that B/C gap, gun has maybe 1 or 2 thou endshake so I don't

think it's hitting, gun runs fine with the same powder charge and 230 Westcoast plated.

Thanks for the info guys.

My 4.7 gr of Tightgroup chronos at average 750FPS in my 4". High of 787 low of 725. Have not checked from the 6.5" 25-2.

All these problems given for Tightgroup are a mystery to me. I use it on all calibers for hand guns and have not had any of the problems listed. I use Montana Gold 230 FMJ and have loaded Frangible ammo also for 9MM and 357SIG. I am working on a frang load right now for 45ACP for indoor practice this winter.

Dave, I think I would try cleaning the lead off and see what happens then.

regards,

[pskys2]

As I said, I use Titegroup in my m29 with 44 russians and a 1911 45 with no problems, though the guns do get hotter quicker than with most other powders.

It has something to do with the Stainless of the 625. It would start intermittent dragging after about 100 rounds. And I do clean with a Bore Snake, Chamber Brush and a Stainless Lead Wipe after every practice session. Played with it all summer before finally switching back to Clays. Kroil would gradually dissolve it, but still had to work on it a while.

45 230gr Ranier RN with 4.5 Titegroup a F150 primer gave 750 f/s out of the 5" PC625.

Just reporting what I've found after using up 6 lbs. of Titegroup this summer and about 4 lbs. of Clays.

Dave

[dajarrel]

I'm like Round_Gun_Shooter, I shoot titegroup in everything I own. The only problem I have is when I shoot a down-loaded load. Titegroup wants to burn completley but needs the pressure to ensure a complete burn. And it does indeed burn hot.

So many variables in OAL, crimp, bullet hardness and other things that can make a round different from another. I"ve not shot a M25 but my 610 and 625 love titegroup w/lead bullets.

dj

Edited November 29, 2005 by dajarrel

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I'm like Round_Gun_Shooter, I shoot titegroup in everything I own. The only problem I have is when I shoot a down-loaded load. Titegroup wants to burn completley but needs the pressure to ensure a complete burn. And it does indeed burn hot.

Maybe that is the difference. I use a pretty heavy crimp to assure proper burning. Hodgdon recommended that to me while answering an e mail question. I also used it for my 125 PF loads for IDPA with no problems. Shot several 300+ round matches and only cleaned when I got home.

I am pretty much at sea level so maybe that makes a difference too

I think I am going to try the Bulls Eye loads anyway.

[spook]

I had the same problem with my 625-3 and fixed it with a little cylinder B/C gap spacer.

I also noticed that it happened more (read: only) with shooting lead than with my Frontier Copper Plated bullets.

[pskys2]

After re-reading the original post, for some reason I thought it was a 625 problem instead of a 25-2, My original info still stands, but as I said I don't notice the same problem with my M29. But, I haven't shot "That" much Titegroup in it as in the 625.

10mmdave how is the Gas Ring? Is there excessive slop at the front of the cylinder? I actually had to have S&W change the one on my m29, it was so worn it was kind of scary.

Or is there a burr on it? So that the cylinder drags on the Crane?

It's rare to wear one out with lead, but if you've had a LOT of High Pressure Pin type loads in a .45 it could wear excessively. Or if you kept dropping it into sand and not cleaning it, ha! ha!

I have a m28 that acts kind of like your 25-2 with lead bullets, it's just too tight and since I never shoot it (except at coyotes w/jacketed hunting loads) I haven't bought a Crane Reamer Tool yet (the problem is lead gets blown in and there is "NO" clearance to work with).

You might try a different Bullet Maker, some are too soft. I tried some 44 specials in the m29 when I first got it (Justice Brand I think) and it had a Moly looking bullet that was just horrible. The bore looked like a shotgun after only 6 rounds.

How is your timing? Do all Cylinders lock up before DA letoff?

Seems the price of Jacketed/Plated Bullets isn't that much more than lead anymore, unless you live in Iowa next to a couple of Casting outfits.

[10mmdave]

Thanks for all the suggestions folks, I just wanted to post a reply so folks don't think I

forgot about them, going to check out the revo real good and load up some lead bullets with

some different powders, let you know how I make out.

I did chrono some jacked and lead loads the other night, all jacked (and plated) loads spun

thru fine, lead loads hung up once in awhile but I only shot 24 or so lead rnds and was

much more interested in chrono results than gun function.

[SIX SHOT]

Thanks for all the suggestions folks, I just wanted to post a reply so folks don't think I

forgot about them, going to check out the revo real good and load up some lead bullets with

some different powders, let you know how I make out.

I did chrono some jacked and lead loads the other night, all jacked (and plated) loads spun

thru fine, lead loads hung up once in awhile but I only shot 24 or so lead rnds and was

much more interested in chrono results than gun function.

Are you buying your cast slugs or making your own? When I size cast in one of my RCBS sizers I sometimes have the same problem, the reason is, they are pushed into the die base first and you can get a little bit of lead pushed forward of the front driving band doing this, if I used my star sizer & I do use it alot, then I don't have this problem because they go in nose first and are pushed out the bottom so any lead from the front driving band would be pushed rearward in sizing. They always gauge & chamber fine using the star machine.

Dick

wear your seat belt, that way you don't have to walk back to the wreck!

[Ignatz]

I have to run my cast lead bullets through a .451 sizer before shooting them through my PC 625. Its an extra step but if I don't, the gun leads up terribly. Night and day difference in my pistol.

[10mmdave]

I have a 25-2 that seems to "hang-up" while shooting a wheel full of lead topped ammo,

drop the moon clip in, spin the cylinder (some folks here are cringing right now ) and

start shooting and maybe on the third or forth rnd the trigger pull feels like I have a bent

clip in there ??

(oh !! load is a 225 TCL over 4.5 grns of TG, Fed case, Fed primed)

Okay, I finally got to run a quantity of lead loads thru my 25-2 and 625 model 1988 revo's

yesterday.

The load this time was with Bullseye using new Starline cases and the same lead truncated

cone bullet.

After about 50 rnds the cylinder started to lock up again, I got to shoot longer than the

Titegroup load but it still gets funky in there. I can run any quantity of plated or jacketed

loads thru the 25-2 and it works fine (the 625 locked up too but I shot the 25-2 more)

Doesn't look to be lead build up on the face of the cylinder, problem arises as the gun gets

"warm" with lead the loads. Cylinder does not appear to be rubbing on the barrel.

I can open the revo, drop out the used moonclip, drop in a fresh one, close the gun and

get 3-4 rnds off before it starts to hang up again. The chambers do get really dirty.

I made a chamber "reamer" out of a piece of 45 brass mtd to a dowel and cleaned out the

charge holes, seemed to help but only for a few wheels.

So I guess my 45 revo's don't like lead, or at the very least this lead bullet, that's okay

since neither do I (the lead part, the bullet maker does a great job) and I'm only trying to

use up these lead bullets I have left for practice and plinking. Just seemed like an odd

problem that I wanted to share with the group.

I've had great luck with Zero's 230 JRN and Westcoast's 230 RN, guess I'll have to try some

of those Frontier plated bullets or Berry's and Rainer's or maybe even the Precision's.

DaveP

[Patrick Sweeney]

You might find a gunsmith with a chambering reamer, and see if the problem is/are the chambers. I had a couple of 25-2s back when I was shooting pins, and both had a couple of chambers that were short or tight and rough. Once I reamed them out and made all six the same length and reamed without toolmarks, they worked just fine.

If you have access to a lathe, power-scrub the chambers clean. Then turn a piece of aluminum or brass rod to the maximum chamber dimensions of SAAMI. See if your chamber gauge will then go easily and smoothly to the full depth of the chamber. If not, there's your answer.

[10mmdave]

You might find a gunsmith with a chambering reamer, and see if the problem is/are the chambers. I had a couple of 25-2s back when I was shooting pins, and both had a couple of chambers that were short or tight and rough. Once I reamed them out and made all six the same length and reamed without toolmarks, they worked just fine.

If you have access to a lathe, power-scrub the chambers clean. Then turn a piece of aluminum or brass rod to the maximum chamber dimensions of SAAMI. See if your chamber gauge will then go easily and smoothly to the full depth of the chamber. If not, there's your answer.

Well I have to believe the chambers are good, I'm shooting jacket or plated loads with

no problems, it's only when I go to the "dirty" loads.

Course that could be the solution !! increase the chamber depth to take up some of that

fouling that I'm seeing at the headspace ledge. When you look down the chambers it looks

like the fouling is being pushed down the side of case and out of the cylinder. After one

wheel the chambers are really dirty.

You make a good point Mr. Sweeny, I should at least confirm that I'm dealing with a

standard chamber. Until then the plated and jacketed stuff will work fine.

[ist45]

I had the same problem with my 625-3 and fixed it with a little cylinder B/C gap spacer.

I also noticed that it happened more (read: only) with shooting lead than with my Frontier Copper Plated bullets.

spook,

i just want to know why you like using PLATED bullets instead of FMJ, what's its advantage over FMJ?

10mmdave,

i use LRN and bring with me a .50 cent brass brush to scrub the lead build up on the forcing cone and the cylinder between stages.