Dedicated Case Flare Die vs Flaring with Mr. Bullet Feeder Powder Funnel

[hlsccsfa]

On 11/12/2021 at 11:43 PM, RGA said:

I too use Lyman M-dies and Redding (normal and premium) expanders in my 650 toolheads when loading 9 and .45ACP. No sticking at all. Not even when sizing first with U-dies.

 

It does cost an extra station (I run them in station 2 and moved the powder measure to station 3) but I don't use a bullet feeder so it works for me.

 

1- sizer

2- expander

3- powder (with return springs instead of the rod)

4- seater

5- crimp

 

I understand the pros and cons of your set up. The current design and finish of the Dillon powder funnel/expander doesn't work with bullet feeder very well, bullet would tilt/fall off quite often when rotating to seating station. The DAA powder funnel solves that problem, but it does the least amount of neck expanding, it is not friendly with coated/thin plated projectile. The redding and lyman die are a combination of those two, but it takes an extra station. If only Dillon can make their powder funnel/expander like the Redding one, then you will be able to use bullet feeder on 650.

 

I got the Redding premium expander die (photo taken from their website), which looks pretty similar to the one in your picture, with different/updated coating judging from the color. I planned to use it on the primer station on my 9mm RL1100, with an aftermarket toolhead of course. It will be like:

    - Mighty Armory decapping die with flicker spring (better in preventing primer pull back)

    - Dillon carbide sizing die (w/o decapping pin)

    - Redding premium expander die

    - Powder (powder funnel for powder drop activating only)

    - Mr.BF

    - Dillon Seating die

    - Dillon Crimp Die

I think this, if set up and adjusted properly, would eliminate any binding even with my SS pin tumbled shiny brass, lubed with one shot.

 

Then I stumbled across a very good discussion on another forum on why Dillon makes that station, well, 'die less'. Basically it says, when the die body is in the case and the primer is being inserted, the case is not vented. So if a primer detonates by accident (very rare but possible), it will create high pressure inside the case that could send parts of the press flying, hurting people. I am not so sure about that idea now.

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by hlsccsfa

[clw42]

I'm seeing more and more crimped primers in my 9mm range brass.  Are you guys that are using the flaring die in the swage station comfortable that it's enough to properly swage a 9mm case while using that die or are most of you using a two pass process?  I've ordered the uniquetek powder drop and the lyman M die.  On my 650, I get case stickage on the powder funnel even when lubing.  It happens with the Dillon, the MBF and the Shooting Sports Innovation droppers.  Actually, I found the SSI dropper to be a real pain the butt because it sticks into the powder assembly.  It's just narrow enough that it will hang up in the assembly at the top.

[Boomstick303]

I have been loading range brass and a mix of other brass with my 1050, and had zero issue using the expander.  I have an issue seating a primer probably like 1-2 primers out of every 1000 or so.  When I pull that casing that primer was to fit into I do not see any issue with the primer pocket, so I do not think crimped 9mm is an issue using the expander die from Redding in the swaging station.  I think something is going on with the press.  I have been using the expanding die almost from the start with the 1050.  I never get any sticking with the press, powder funnel, etc.

 

With that said I just loaded about 6000 rounds of prepped brass I purchased from someone on the board, and it was one of the best loading experiences I have had to date.  For this reason, and I intend to automate soon I will be prepping 9mm brass before loading it, so it will become a 2 pass process.   I most likely will remove the primer and sizer with two different dies during the prep process and then expand the brass when I load it.  I am not sure if I can use the expander in station 1, and the normal hold down die in the swaging station.  I am not sure if the hold down die would affect the expanding the brass was accomplished in station 1.  I do not think it will because the Dillon hold down die is supposed to start expanding the brass in the swaging station, but does not allow you to expand it as much as you can with an expander die. 

 

Most likely will be playing with press operations once I am done loading some 223 in February.    

[clw42]

8 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

I have been loading range brass and a mix of other brass with my 1050, and had zero issue using the expander.  I have an issue seating a primer probably like 1-2 primers out of every 1000 or so.  When I pull that casing that primer was to fit into I do not see any issue with the primer pocket, so I do not think crimped 9mm is an issue using the expander die from Redding in the swaging station.  I think something is going on with the press.  I have been using the expanding die almost from the start with the 1050.  I never get any sticking with the press, powder funnel, etc.

 

With that said I just loaded about 6000 rounds of prepped brass I purchased from someone on the board, and it was one of the best loading experiences I have had to date.  For this reason, and I intend to automate soon I will be prepping 9mm brass before loading it, so it will become a 2 pass process.   I most likely will remove the primer and sizer with two different dies during the prep process and then expand the brass when I load it.  I am not sure if I can use the expander in station 1, and the normal hold down die in the swaging station.  I am not sure if the hold down die would affect the expanding the brass was accomplished in station 1.  I do not think it will because the Dillon hold down die is supposed to start expanding the brass in the swaging station, but does not allow you to expand it as much as you can with an expander die. 

 

Most likely will be playing with press operations once I am done loading some 223 in February.    

 

 

Thanks Boom.  What is the issue that you're having with the primer seating?  Are they just not going in or are they flipped or something else?

[Boomstick303]

9 hours ago, clw42 said:

  Are they just not going in or are they flipped or something else?

 

They do not go in, get smashed in an odd way. It's never consistent on what happens to them.  I am sure some come from crimpped brass but not enough to think it's an issue. Like I said it happens very rarely. 

 

The main reason I do not think it's from crimped brass is mostly due to that run of sorted Winchester brass I used and the primer issue was the same failure rate. About 1-2 primers for every thousand or so bullets loaded. 

[78Staff]

On 11/12/2021 at 10:43 AM, Boomstick303 said:

I wet tumble with pins, lube cases with a substance I mixed that is similar to Dillon’s case lube (lanolin/alcohol mixture) and had sticking issues when I was only using the Dillon and MBF powder funnels using my Dillon Super 1050.  I was then made aware of the Redding expander die by someone on this forum. I installed that in the swaging station and never had a sticking issue since. The press runs super smooth once I dialed in the dies and lubrication amount just right. Make sure you do not over bell the brass with the expander die which will be easy to do if it is not adjusted correctly if you go that route. 

 

https://www.opticsplanet.com/redding-reloading-premium-expander-die.html?_iv_caliber-193146313=9mm-luger

 

Not it affiliated with Optics Planet or Redding used link as reference. 

 

Let me me know if you have any quaestions. 

 

So the Redding Expander does a better job of the stock Dillion Swage/Expander die?  That is setup I use with stock Dillon funnel, and I haven't had the "sticking" issues on the 1050.  The common wisdom was that on the 1050 the MBF funnel wasn't needed due to the existence of the stock Swage/Expander die if setup correctly, but I'm always open to improvements, as I do get some bullet wobble with the dillon expander.

[clw42]

2 hours ago, 78Staff said:

 

So the Redding Expander does a better job of the stock Dillion Swage/Expander die?  That is setup I use with stock Dillon funnel, and I haven't had the "sticking" issues on the 1050.  The common wisdom was that on the 1050 the MBF funnel wasn't needed due to the existence of the stock Swage/Expander die if setup correctly, but I'm always open to improvements, as I do get some bullet wobble with the dillon expander.

 

I tried the original dillon set up, but had the wobbly bullet issue.  So their swage hold/case expansion was not enough to set a 125 grain .356 blue bullet from the MBF to the seating die without the bullets tipping. 

 

I then tried the Lyman M die in the swage station not the Redding (so there may be a difference), along with the belling only powder drop funnel.  What I found was that the Lyman M die was overworking the brass.  I had to run it so low as to avoid wobbly bullets from the MBF to the seating die, that there was expansion below bullet seating depth.  Interestingly this did not cause any bullet setback, but I didn't care for it and suspect it could cause some problems down the road.

 

I then purchased a Lyman hold down die along with these two powder funnels:

https://uniquetek.com/product/T1736

https://uniquetek.com/product/T1582

 

The second one is pretty much a direct match for the MBF funnel.  I will say though, I was a tad disappointed in the lack of polished finish on both.  So I did have to polish them.

 

So the Lyman hold down in the swage station, and the first of the two Uniquitek funnels noted above did not yield the results I was trying to achieve.  Still wobbly bullets.  Not much sticking though.

 

Ultimately, I've landed on the second funnel from Uniquetek and the Lyman hold down die.  This has given me pretty much everything - solid bullet seating so no wobbling or tipping from MBF to seat, and very minimal case sticking, as in not all of them but a few out of say 100.

 

I currently have the F&F brass expander/hold down rod on the way.  I'm going to test that as well and see how it works with the stock powder drop that ships with the 1100.

https://fastandfriendlybrass.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=85

 

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by clw42

[Kletus]

I just use the Mr. Bullet Feed expander/funnel and keep it clean/lubed.  I hold it still with one hand and use a used dryer sheet to wipe it off clean.  Then I just spray some one shot on my finger and use it to lube around the outside of the expander section of the MBF.  It's typically good for several hundred rounds before it starts sticking any again.

 

I also keep my brass in a shoe box sized bin and as soon as I scoop enough out to put in the brass feeder I spray the top layer with one shot.  That gives it time to dry off before it's time to put the next batch in.

[Boomstick303]

4 hours ago, 78Staff said:

So the Redding Expander does a better job of the stock Dillion Swage/Expander die?  That is setup I use with stock Dillon funnel, and I haven't had the "sticking" issues on the 1050.  The common wisdom was that on the 1050 the MBF funnel wasn't needed due to the existence of the stock Swage/Expander die if setup correctly, but I'm always open to improvements, as I do get some bullet wobble with the dillon expander.

 

I do not get bullet wobble.  I am not saying there is anything wrong with the Dillon hold down/expander die, and that for some it works just fine.  The Dillon die did not prevent sticking with my setup.  I also Wet Tumble my brass with pins so it is squeaky clean. I would surmise, those who do not experience sticking using the Dillon hold down/expander die are dry tumbling their brass for the most part.  I could be wrong, but many have reported the dry tumbling helps prevent sticking. 

 

I do lube my brass with a substance like the Dillon lube which I understand is Alcohol and Lanolin base products.  Even with the lube, the funnel would stick.  Once I installed the Redding expander die in station 2 over the swage rod, the issue was completely eliminated.  

 

If you are happy with your setup I would stick with it.  If the bullet wobble slows down production, it is something you could consider.

[ddc]

With respect to the Redding expander die: Any idea what the threading for the small lock ring is?

 

Mine keeps coming loose unless I really crank on it and I thought a second ring might lock it down better.

[78Staff]

6 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I do not get bullet wobble.  I am not saying there is anything wrong with the Dillon hold down/expander die, and that for some it works just fine.  The Dillon die did not prevent sticking with my setup.  I also Wet Tumble my brass with pins so it is squeaky clean. I would surmise, those who do not experience sticking using the Dillon hold down/expander die are dry tumbling their brass for the most part.  I could be wrong, but many have reported the dry tumbling helps prevent sticking. 

 

I do lube my brass with a substance like the Dillon lube which I understand is Alcohol and Lanolin base products.  Even with the lube, the funnel would stick.  Once I installed the Redding expander die in station 2 over the swage rod, the issue was completely eliminated.  

 

If you are happy with your setup I would stick with it.  If the bullet wobble slows down production, it is something you could consider.

 

Yeah I dry tumble... I do have a FART but tbh it just seemed like more trouble than it was worth for my range/plinking loads.  I keep it around in case I want to really bling up some PR brass, but I don't think I've used it in almost 2 years :).

[Ryan67]

I just use the SSI powder funnel that's DLC coated and seems to do a better job than the Mr Bullet feeder version. Doesn't stick but I don't use SS pins while wet tumbling. Leaves a good flare where the bullet sits right in there and is stable. I prefer to keep the swage hold down actually holding down the brass in the shell plate. 

[clw42]

15 hours ago, Ryan67 said:

I just use the SSI powder funnel that's DLC coated and seems to do a better job than the Mr Bullet feeder version. Doesn't stick but I don't use SS pins while wet tumbling. Leaves a good flare where the bullet sits right in there and is stable. I prefer to keep the swage hold down actually holding down the brass in the shell plate. 

 

I didn't have great luck with the SSI.  It seemed to hang up inside the powder measure.  The flaring end was fine.

 

 

[Ryan67]

12 hours ago, clw42 said:

 

I didn't have great luck with the SSI.  It seemed to hang up inside the powder measure.  The flaring end was fine.

 

 

 

Interesting. Did you measure the diameter? Was it over sized or anything? I haven't had any issues with mine.

[clw42]

1 hour ago, Ryan67 said:

Interesting. Did you measure the diameter? Was it over sized or anything? I haven't had any issues with mine.

 

I did not.  I delegated it to my 9mm minor set up and called it a day.  I only load a few k of those per year so it will annoy me, but less.

[VortecMAX]

I use the MBF funnel for 9mm.  I had the sticking issue also.  I spray the cases (100 at a time in a gallon ziploc) with OneShot before loading (sizing).  Although I am not consciously trying, some of that gets into at least some of the case mouths, which helps with the sticking.  I also put a nice polish on the expander portion of the funnel which helps even more.  Thicker/harder cases (like CBC headstamp) still stick a little, but you can develop a technique to power through the "stick" gently without spilling powder.  I stand at the press and put the handle close to my body which helps smooth that out.

 

Mike

 

[eboos]

I wet tumble with pins, dry tumble with walnut and a couple drops of Nu Finish and use the MBF funnel with no sticking. The dry tumbling adds the lubricity needed to prevent sticking.

[HOGRIDER]

Anyone know why SSI chose to make their 9mm powder funnel longer than the 1050/1100 version?