Targets in the open, positions of cover, and re-engagement rules

[matteekay]

Howdy everybody! Working on some stage designs and I think I hit an interesting wrinkle that I can't find exact rules for. I've built two versions of a super-simplified stage below to demonstrate the problem. 

 

V1:

 

V2:

 

 

Let's say the shooter starts in SP. T1 and T2 are declared as "in the open" (but there's no requirement that they're shot from SP). On the start signal, the shooter moves to POC1 and shoots T3, then shoots T1 and T2. If I've interpreted the rules correctly:

 

• In V1, the shooter is assessed no penalty for shooting T3 first. However, they will be awarded a PE for exposing themselves to un-engaged targets when shooting T1 and T2.
• In V2, the shooter would be awarded no PE's provided they stay behind POC2.

 

Anything I've missed?

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by matteekay

[Chrisyoung]

Why would anyone not shoot t1 and t2 from the sp?

 

[matteekay]

7 minutes ago, Chrisyoung said:

Why would anyone not shoot t1 and t2 from the sp?

 

 

I'm greatly oversimplifying the real stage to make the rule conversation easier.

[Racinready300ex]

My understanding, is V1 if you move you still need to shoot T1 and T2 before engaging T3 or you get a PE.

 

v2 IMO should be fine, but I've been to matches where something similar was set up and they said you still have to shoot T1 and T2 first even if you retreat to cover first so you aren't exposed to them. 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Chrisyoung said:

Why would anyone not shoot t1 and t2 from the sp?

 

 

Thinking out loud a little. If it's not a lot of room you might draw as you move to P1 then engage everything from one position. Other wise you're standing still drawing and shooting from SP then moving to P1 stopping and shooting again. Unless this makes T1 and T2 really hard it'll likely be faster shooting them all from one POC.

[matteekay]

17 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

v2 IMO should be fine, but I've been to matches where something similar was set up and they said you still have to shoot T1 and T2 first even if you retreat to cover first so you aren't exposed to them. 

 

I think that's totally acceptable if it's part of the stage briefing. I don't think there's a way to call a PE if it's not.

 

Don't get too hung up on why someone wouldn't shoot T1 and T2 to start - I drew this up just to demonstrate the rules in question. The real stage is way more complicated and involves a swinger.

 

(If it wasn't painfully obvious, I'm mostly trying to determine how I can game my own stages  ) 

Edited October 12, 2021 by matteekay

[Racinready300ex]

37 minutes ago, matteekay said:

 

I think that's totally acceptable if it's part of the stage briefing. I don't think there's a way to call a PE if it's not.

 

Don't get too hung up on why someone wouldn't shoot T1 and T2 to start - I drew this up just to demonstrate the rules in question. The real stage is way more complicated and involves a swinger.

 

(If it wasn't painfully obvious, I'm mostly trying to determine how I can game my own stages  ) 

 

The stage I'm thinking of was much more complex too. Multiple disappearing movers and a down loaded start, you were supposed to get to P1 with 2 rounds in the gun unless you round dumped and reloaded. As soon as I asked the question I think they knew what I wanted to do and shut me down. The beauty of IDPA is the rules are what ever you say they are really. Just make sure everyone gets the same shot at it. 

[matteekay]

15 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

The stage I'm thinking of was much more complex too. Multiple disappearing movers and a down loaded start, you were supposed to get to P1 with 2 rounds in the gun unless you round dumped and reloaded. As soon as I asked the question I think they knew what I wanted to do and shut me down. 

 

Actually, re-reading the rules, even V2 would probably result in a PE.

• 3.5.2 - When cover is available it must be used, while engaging targets, unless the shooter is “in the open” and must engage targets “in the open.” Shooters may not cross or enter any openings (doorways, open spaces, etc.) without first engaging targets visible from those locations.

 

You basically have to declare if a target is in the open or not; there isn't a situation where the shooter has the option to engage it as they choose. 

[MHicks]

In the second scenario poc2 would be there if you decide to re-engage  t1 and t2.

[Racinready300ex]

35 minutes ago, matteekay said:

 

Actually, re-reading the rules, even V2 would probably result in a PE.

• 3.5.2 - When cover is available it must be used, while engaging targets, unless the shooter is “in the open” and must engage targets “in the open.” Shooters may not cross or enter any openings (doorways, open spaces, etc.) without first engaging targets visible from those locations.

 

You basically have to declare if a target is in the open or not; there isn't a situation where the shooter has the option to engage it as they choose. 

 

That's one of those funny rules, that really should make v2 a illegal stage. But you'll see it just like I did in the match I'm thinking of.

 

If you put down a fault line that means cover is available so it must be used per the rule book. Also per the rule book the stage description cannot override the rules. So you can't just say engage these in the open. V1 should be legal, but you need to engage the targets in the open prior to the targets from POC1. 

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, matteekay said:

You basically have to declare if a target is in the open or not;

 

Why?

 

The start position is already outside of cover and you're exposed to the targets while in it.  You are, by every conceivable definition of the words, in the open.

[Racinready300ex]

11 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Why?

 

The start position is already outside of cover and you're exposed to the targets while in it.  You are, by every conceivable definition of the words, in the open.

 

It goes to the "if cover is available you must use it" thing. You need to say something in the WSB like engage these targets in the open on your way to cover. This forces them to do what you say and eliminates them being able to retreat to cover and engage the targets from that position. Or you can say "may engage on your way" leaving them a option. But otherwise you're probably supposed to retreat and engage from cover simply because it is available. 

 

But, in IDPA you always ask the SO's for clarification. Or at least i do. 

[matteekay]

 

1 hour ago, SGT_Schultz said:

The start position is already outside of cover and you're exposed to the targets while in it.  You are, by every conceivable definition of the words, in the open.

 

Right. However, in V2, there is a position of cover available, leading to this:

 

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

If you put down a fault line that means cover is available so it must be used per the rule book. Also per the rule book the stage description cannot override the rules. 

 

Right. So, even if you declare them in the open, the WSB would be superseded by 1.2.2.F "Shooting from behind cover is a basic premise of IDPA. Competitors will use all available cover in a CoF." 

 

 

57 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

But, in IDPA you always ask the SO's for clarification. Or at least i do. 

 

Kinda the golden rule. I hate leaving it to my SO's, though, so I try to make my stages as bulletproof as I can and make sure I cover anything that's odd in the walkthrough. In this case, the simplest approach is to utilize V1 and declare the targets in the open. The stage layout then dictates that T1 and T2 must be shot before T3 to avoid a PE without me needing to write it out. Re-engagement can also occur in the open.

Edited October 12, 2021 by matteekay

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, matteekay said:

Right. However, in V2, there is a position of cover available,

 

 

How close does it have to be to be "available"?

 

What if the distance between SP and the left POC in V2 is 15 yards?  Do you run 15 yards with your back to available targets to shoot them from there?

[ddc]

4 hours ago, MHicks said:

In the second scenario poc2 would be there if you decide to re-engage  t1 and t2.

 

Once t1 and t2 have been engaged you don't need a POC to re-engage them.

They can be re-engaged from any place on the stage where it is safe.

[MHicks]

Ok. If you engaged them at the start in the open then move to poc 1 and engage t3 then go back and decide to re-engage t1 or t2 you can run out in the open again and don't have to use poc2? If that's the rule currently then that's what you can do.  Wasn't there a time in the past where you'd have to re-engage from cover, before they used the faultlines?

[matteekay]

7 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

How close does it have to be to be "available"?

 

What if the distance between SP and the left POC in V2 is 15 yards?  Do you run 15 yards with your back to available targets to shoot them from there?

 

Not sure distance really plays a part here - it's probably more a question of what targets are available from POC2 and which target the fault line is "aimed" at. It's pretty clear that cover is available for T1 and T2 in the super-simple drawing I made.

[matteekay]

6 hours ago, ddc said:

 

Once t1 and t2 have been engaged you don't need a POC to re-engage them.

They can be re-engaged from any place on the stage where it is safe.

 

That's always been my understanding of re-engagement rules.

[SGT_Schultz]

3 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

Not sure distance really plays a part here - it's probably more a question of what targets are available from POC2 and which target the fault line is "aimed" at. It's pretty clear that cover is available for T1 and T2 in the super-simple drawing I made.

 

 

I guess I'd take the 3 second penalty and run it 4 seconds faster than everyone else

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

I guess I'd take the 3 second penalty and run it 4 seconds faster than everyone else

 

They might make a case for a FP if you did that. 10 second penalty for when you gain enough of a advantage that a PE doesn't cut it.

[Jim Watson]

MD/SOs here are pretty good about specifying "these targets are in the open and are to be engaged near to far," or "these are surprise targets and may be engaged in any order, moving or standing."

 

Of course that is just an aspect of Rule Zero.

13 hours ago, ddc said:

 

Once t1 and t2 have been engaged you don't need a POC to re-engage them.

They can be re-engaged from any place on the stage where it is safe.

 

Not quite.  Rule says

1. Targets may be re-engaged from other shooting positions provided the shooter does not break the defined

   Muzzle Safe Points see section 2.9.

We had to tell a shooter not to charge a target past the last fault line the other day.  

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Jim Watson said:

MD/SOs here are pretty good about specifying "these targets are in the open and are to be engaged near to far," or "these are surprise targets and may be engaged in any order, moving or standing."

 

Of course that is just an aspect of Rule Zero.

 

Not quite.  Rule says

1. Targets may be re-engaged from other shooting positions provided the shooter does not break the defined

   Muzzle Safe Points see section 2.9.

We had to tell a shooter not to charge a target past the last fault line the other day.  

 

The interpretation of that in this area is you can re-engage targets from anywhere within the stage. Minus your example of going past the last fault line. I think that's supposed to be the end of the stage. 

[ddc]

24 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

The interpretation of that in this area is you can re-engage targets from anywhere within the stage. Minus your example of going past the last fault line. I think that's supposed to be the end of the stage. 

My understanding as well.  Anywhere on the stage, in the open, whatever, where ever, as long as safe and not past last fault line.

[matteekay]

5 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

I guess I'd take the 3 second penalty and run it 4 seconds faster than everyone else

 

In the hypothetical world where you took a hypothetical stage and moved the first shooting position to 15 yards? Sure, whatever makes you happy.

[matteekay]

2 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

Not quite.  Rule says

1. Targets may be re-engaged from other shooting positions provided the shooter does not break the defined

   Muzzle Safe Points see section 2.9.

We had to tell a shooter not to charge a target past the last fault line the other day.  

 

Yes, sorry, should have clarified - anywhere that's safe and behind a forward fault line (if one exists). I have my special group of shooters that I always have to put down forward faults for  .

[Jim Watson]

"I guess I'd take the 3 second penalty and run it 4 seconds faster than everyone else."

 

Early days, there was a variation on this:  "I don't care what the lame silly rules say, I am going to shoot it the way they taught me at ninjaswatoperatorskool and take the penalty.

 

Now there is the Flagrant Penalty but in those days I believe I would have been justified in giving a DQ or at least a 20 sec. FTDR for unsportsmanlike conduct by intentionally breaking rules.  

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Jim Watson