Grip, Handstops, & PCC Technique

[Bergeron]

I’m in the process of acquiring all the parts and associated goodies for my first PCC. It’ll be built off the CMMG RDB system, using their receiver set, bolt, and 16” barrel. I have a Faxon 13” CF hand guard for it, and have a question about hand stops/grips and general technique.

 

I get that the PCC has some technique to learn and apply for recoil control. Is there a general preference for gripping the forearm pulling into the shoulder, or using a push/pull technique like a shotgun, or is it best to just wrap the hand around the hand guard and not worry about pushing or pulling?

 

I almost never see vertical handgrips on any non-NFA PCC, so that feels like a clue not to use them, but I find the idea of the hand stop to build an index point potentially interesting. Any merit to any of that?

 

Thanks!

[CClassForLife]

Quote

Is there a general preference for gripping the forearm pulling into the shoulder, or using a push/pull technique like a shotgun, or is it best to just wrap the hand around the hand guard and not worry about pushing or pulling?

 

There are two active PCC gods. Pavol Zencar and Max Leograndis. They both wrap the hand around the handguard, but it's not an exaggerated C clamp. Max prefers to use a more central stock position (more central than the shoulder pocket) to minimize horizontal variance. Pavol wraps his index finger in front of his handguard to do the same. Both lean into the rifle to minimize vertical variance. It was much easier for me to learn Pavol's method, as a result all my competition AR handguards are ~6 inches. Regardless, they rely on a passive means to control recoil and I don't think they're thinking about pulling into the shoulder. They know from testing that as long as they mount the rifle correctly, they will be able to place shots exactly where they're aiming. Essentially, the rifle is like a puzzle piece that interlocks into the surrounding pieces of their body.

 

Quote

I almost never see vertical handgrips on any non-NFA PCC, so that feels like a clue not to use them, but I find the idea of the hand stop to build an index point potentially interesting. Any merit to any of that?

 

If having a hand stop makes you more comfortable, then give it a try. I found them annoying on my ARs, but I have one on my AK. Ultimately, it's a user preference thing.

 

Since it's your first PCC, you'll see the most improvement in getting familiar with the controls of your rifle first. Personally, I think it's best to refrain from adding accessories until you see a need for it through practice, because I hate having to buy 10 different variations of the same thing to get the fit just right.

[Boomstick303]

There has been a recent video posted on here where Max gives a great breakdown of how he holds the PCC controls different aspects of recoil. Dig a little and you will find it. Pretty informative. I agree with @CClassForLifeI would wait on foregrips and extras before you get familiar with your rifle. You might find you waste a lot of money chasing other people’s comforts.  I have been shooting rifles pretty regularly for two years have just added angled foregrips to two ARs. I use them more for reference points for controls of light switches on the rifles. Just trying them out for now. 

 

I doubt I will ever add any to competition rifles or PCCs.  There are times you will need to grab that rail in different locations for shooting at all kinds of messed up angles at speed in competitions. The foregrips tend to cause more distractions in my eyes than functional use. 

[AKJD]

 

 

[Bergeron]

Fantastic stuff, thanks ya'll!

 

Max's recoil presentation is similar to what I've heard/been advised on for pistols, and although the body mechanics are very different with PCC, the process and results seem very similar, and I notice that he's keeping very neutral on the off-hand. Similar with Mr. Seeklander, I just need to keep crap off the gun and figure out body mechanics.

 

A couple of parts due to the mailbox in about a week, and then I can see about getting all this mess stitched together and coated/painted, then the fun times await.

[Racinready300ex]

On 10/2/2021 at 1:46 AM, CClassForLife said:

 

They both wrap the hand around the handguard, but it's not an exaggerated C clamp. Max prefers to use a more central stock position (more central than the shoulder pocket) to minimize horizontal variance. Pavol wraps his index finger in front of his handguard to do the same.

 

I'm not sure I completely follow what Pavol does, I have seen some of his video's on youtube but it's hard to tell what his left hand is doing. 

 

Is his finger in front of the hand guard and under the barrel? Wrapping around the front of the gun? Do you have a photo or video to reference? 

[CClassForLife]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'm not sure I completely follow what Pavol does, I have seen some of his video's on youtube but it's hard to tell what his left hand is doing. 

 

Is his finger in front of the hand guard and under the barrel? Wrapping around the front of the gun? Do you have a photo or video to reference? 

 

[Racinready300ex]

Interesting. my comp might tell me not to do that. But, it's something to think about. 

[Boomstick303]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Interesting. my comp might tell me not to do that. But, it's something to think about. 

 

 

Man.... if you shot AR and PCC that way its a good way to blow you finger off with an aggressive muzzle break, if you the end of your rail was at the base of your muzzle break if you forget you are shooting your AR

Edited October 4, 2021 by Boomstick303

[Racinready300ex]

13 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

 

Man.... if you shot AR and PCC that way its a good way to blow you finger off with an aggressive muzzle break, if you the end of your rail was at the base of your muzzle break if you forget you are shooting your AR

 

Kinda what I was thinking lol. I am wondering if you could do something similar with one of the small hook shaped hand stops and wrap your pointer finger around the front of that under the handguard. Right now I don't run anything on the handguard. The season is over so I have time to play with stuff and figure out what I like before next year. 

[Bdh821]

I may not be at Max or Pavol's level, but I think I'm a decent contender to them.  I don't use any gimmicky stuff for grips or anything on my MPX.  My MPX has a stock MPX Competition handguard and I just dont care to replace it.  I've had people suggest a carbon fiber one to reduce weight, but is 1-2oz going to really make me shoot better?  I say no. 

 

Build a PCC, and just shoot it.  Learn what works best for YOU.

[Nolan]

16 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

 

Man.... if you shot AR and PCC that way its a good way to blow you finger off with an aggressive muzzle break, if you the end of your rail was at the base of your muzzle break if you forget you are shooting your AR

 

Jerry seems to think it's OK for PCC and rimfire.

 

Nolan

 

 

[Boomstick303]

23 minutes ago, Nolan said:

Jerry seems to think it's OK for PCC and rimfire.

 

Did you read my post?  Is he using PCCs and AR Rifle with a muzzle break where the rail meets the break?

 

No one said it was in improper way to shoot a gun.  The comment revolved around muscle memory and how that could get someone in trouble, if they were not diligent in finger position when switching platforms.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Boomstick303

[egd5]

I think Seeklander said it best in the video above. You just have to experiment and find what's comfortable for YOU. What Max or he does may not be right for you.

I just shot Area 4 on a squad with max and other great shooters. Trust me, where you hold your hand is not what makes them great. They all move FAST and with NO wasted motion. They just flow through the stages.

[Racinready300ex]

29 minutes ago, egd5 said:

I think Seeklander said it best in the video above. You just have to experiment and find what's comfortable for YOU. What Max or he does may not be right for you.

I just shot Area 4 on a squad with max and other great shooters. Trust me, where you hold your hand is not what makes them great. They all move FAST and with NO wasted motion. They just flow through the stages.

 

For sure everything matters. But I'd bet all those guys have spent a lot of time thinking about this stuff too, and trying to find the best technique. If you want to hang with them you're going to need to be able to do it all. 

[Nolan]

6 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Did you read my post?  Is he using PCCs and AR Rifle with a muzzle break where the rail meets the break?

 

No one said it was in improper way to shoot a gun.  The comment revolved around muscle memory and how that could get someone in trouble, if they were not diligent in finger position when switching platforms.

 

Sensitive much?  I just said "Jerry seems to think it's OK for PCC and rimfire."  No where in that sentence did I suggest that YOU said it was an improper way to shoot a gun.

 

Nolan

[Bdh821]

Here’s a photo of me in Front Sight where you can see my grip. I’d agree that what may work for some, doesn’t always work for others.  

[Boomstick303]

4 hours ago, Nolan said:

Sensitive much?

 

Not sensitive at all.  

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, Nolan said:

 

Sensitive much?  I just said "Jerry seems to think it's OK for PCC and rimfire."  No where in that sentence did I suggest that YOU said it was an improper way to shoot a gun.

 

Nolan

 

Your post did make it seem like you where trying to say he was wrong, even though the video doesn't really change what he said at all. Maybe the post didn't have the desired effect. 

[drone14k]

On 10/2/2021 at 1:46 AM, CClassForLife said:

 

There are two active PCC gods. Pavol Zencar and Max Leograndis. They both wrap the hand around the handguard, but it's not an exaggerated C clamp. Max prefers to use a more central stock position (more central than the shoulder pocket) to minimize horizontal variance. Pavol wraps his index finger in front of his handguard to do the same. Both lean into the rifle to minimize vertical variance. It was much easier for me to learn Pavol's method, as a result all my competition AR handguards are ~6 inches. Regardless, they rely on a passive means to control recoil and I don't think they're thinking about pulling into the shoulder. They know from testing that as long as they mount the rifle correctly, they will be able to place shots exactly where they're aiming. Essentially, the rifle is like a puzzle piece that interlocks into the surrounding pieces of their body.

 

 

If having a hand stop makes you more comfortable, then give it a try. I found them annoying on my ARs, but I have one on my AK. Ultimately, it's a user preference thing.

 

Since it's your first PCC, you'll see the most improvement in getting familiar with the controls of your rifle first. Personally, I think it's best to refrain from adding accessories until you see a need for it through practice, because I hate having to buy 10 different variations of the same thing to get the fit just right.

Do you still do the Pavol grip? If so what handguard do you use?