The State Of 3 Gunning

[George]

Dang right Beven, the state of 3gun is that IT'S A GAME folks. We need to recognize that and start dealing with the reality of negative perception by outsiders before it actually becomes something other than a concern for some indeterminate time in the future. As much as I would like to see it work for the sake of the folks interested in it, I too see Trooper as a publicity killer in the long run. It just won't play on all screens and will probably need to reside in a niche for the good of the sport.

I stated my feeling earlier here that it's racing for me. Beven has crystalized my thoughts on that, again. Competition shooting will make you better at shooting and if you are better at shooting, you will be better off in a tight situation that can be solved with a firearm. Additionally, if you race cars or motorcycles, you will get better at handling those machines under duress and at speed and yes, it will come in handy if you are ever in a tight situation while driving one of those machines on a public road. But calling racing training for driving on the street is not right and neither is calling the shooting sports we practice a training ground for armed conflict. It just ain't so, even if a few of the competitors do look at it that way.

We really need to look good and hard at the issues Beven brings up surrounding the perception of our sport as a paramilitary training ground. It's a game and treating it like anything else is going to be a problem in the long run. Of this I am certain.

--

Regards,

BTW Beven, how are you utilizing cans instead of clays. I want details. Soda cans, soup cans? Stood on end, or side? Flattened, or ? How high do they go? Hang time? I want to know it all now and the rest tomorrow ;-)

Seriously, that is a very intriguing idea and your point about scoring being a random thing with real clays is something I have wondered about too.

Thanks in advance for more info on this.

[MKuhn]

Some guys are pitted against the universal solder in heavy body armor, some against the waddies. Me, I was sent in to make the universe safe from the alien scourge. Thankfully the pesky aliens aren’t so smart they use cellulose body armor, it can’t handle our “inferior and primitive” projectile weapons, ha ha they go through it like paper.

It’s those damn un-dead, takes a headshot. That’s when my trusty O’ll skatter gun really shines, hell you git a pack of them suckers, and thank God my utility belt holds 30 + rounds.

Public acceptance; I didn’t know it wasn’t, every one I talk to think its cool. But its never going to popular, and its really never going to be public. The only ones that come are the ones that we invite, and I’m not ashamed or bashful of my intent, nor do I intend on hiding it.

With warmth and affection.

Mell

[Paule]

I hope I didn't come across as seeing 3-Gun as a substitute for self-defense or combat situations. Far from it, it's a game. My comparison was only to point out that shotguns are not antiques on the two-way ranges of today. May be someday, when the handheld death rays are perfected.

I agree with Beven that scoring clays, as current rules outline, is harder than needed. Look at the sports where all the clays fly though. One hole isn't enough unless the clay breaks enough to affect the flight. Works fine for ATA, NSSA, NSCA. Maybe we should take a lesson. One pellet on a stationary clay is not even a "D" hit in my book. DVC? I say break it, or shoot it again.

Flippers and traps are just like any other mechanical devices. They can be made well and work well, or not so well and malf. If they get used more the guys building them will make better ones. Free enterprise will provide.

The image risk with Trooper class could become a real problem. Perception is a lot and if 3-Gun gets a media rep of being a training ground for private militias we will all suffer. The model to me is Cowboy Action. Lots of nice folks dressing up in Old West outfits and shooting old antique guns. Yep, and while a lot of those folks are in it for the duds, there are a lot of very good shooters, practicing with some very deadly weapons, and the outside world thinks they are just so cute. Tip - don't get into a shotgun shoot-off with a good cowboy sporting a model 97. Might be embarrassing... I have a friend who can shoot my Texas Star faster with a SA revolver than most can with a semiauto.

Hot reholstering is a skill that everyone should have, but I'm not sure that everyone does. Is this the place to teach it? I see lots of DQs and fellow competitors scrambling for hard cover. While there are lots of training facilities that run hot ranges, I know of none that do it with "basic" level shooters. I think it's a prescription for disaster. Eventually someone will get shot.

I would like to see rules and course designs that supported use of this skill in a safe way so that all levels could play together. One workable scenario might be to allow reholstering of an empty weapon and set up the stage to require shots equal to the number of rounds loaded in the gun. Maybe an 8-round max with 4 IPSC targets or 8 plates. You shoot the pistol dry, reholster and transition to a longer gun to finish the rest of the stage. You still have the pressure of holstering on the clock, but without the risk of GSR on your new shoe.

Same thing could work with long guns. Limit the rounds and shoot it dry, then transition to pistol. Maybe offer a spot to drop it as an alternative, but make it far enough away to make dropping it on a sling a good alternative. The "P" still means practical, and to me it's never a good idea to abandon a gun. Not a skill I will ever practice, for sure. I don't want that in my muscle memory.

[TeamGE]

MKuhn,

I agree with you, guns and shooting will never be a PC as we would like it to be. I gave up on that idea along time ago. But we still need to be available for the general masses that do show up. If one person out of a 100, or even a 1000 showed up at the range because they heard alot of shooting going on, it is worth it not to scare them off. Every once and awhile I see a local mayor or public offical show up at a big match to show support to the gun owners of the area, and I am sure public image is on their mind before showing up. I sure everone is aware of the problems with kids and guns, god knows the media does. Well why give them anymore fuel for the fire. I know that we will never get a break from the media, but camo on kids is not a good picture, unless it has something to do with hunting, (and I know, the general public does not like that either).

George,

We use aluminum soda/beer cans, mostly. They are the easiest to collect and save. Place them standing staight up, uncrushed. They will usually fly 10 to 15 feet up, with the wind causing some hang time and direction changes. If you need a little more weight, just put a rock or two in the can. After the can gets shot up, it is still crushable, and recycleable. And the lead shot that may get caught up in process may even add to the total weight of your refund, . After all, us Californians have to pay a nickel for the can that the soda or beer comes in, just so we can save the can and return it for that nickel. We might as well use in for something good in the process. Matches in other states that require the can to be uncrushed when returned will have to think of something else.

Edited October 27, 2005 by TeamGE

[TeamGE]

Hot reholstering, no way. It is hard enough to get a match finished without DQ'ing 5 or more shooters now. I for one would not want to be behind the shooter who is trying to get their hot gun back into their holster, (with is positioned behind the hip in most cases) under the stress of the timer. If you really think about it, how many times have you seen the 180 get broke on holstering a hot gun after the "load and make ready" command. Hot reholstering would be too hard to safely control, under the stress of the timer. Paule said it right. There is a place for hot reholstering, (training for it) but not while playing in this game.

I also see no need for hot pistols on every stage, if not needed for the stage. Why add more time to the stage than it needs, to have the shooter load the pistol at the start, and then unload it at the end of the stage. Multigun is great, but I sure don't need to lug a gun around I don't need to shoot the stage with. If my primary gun fails, then it's my fault that I didn't maintain it correctly, and my score will be my penalty. I will make sure my gun and ammo works right on the next stage. Remember, it's a game. Most stage designs will not transition well to a backup gun anyway, and the time it takes to transition safely will penalize your score so much that you might as well fix the problem with the primary gun.

[SinistralRifleman]

This is a game, and we need to keep it in perspective to the real life uses of firearms. I do get caught up in the power of the guns we use, but I also come back to reality when I look at the people who are shooting the game, and the people who are watch us. We need to keep this sport a game and not a military/swat testing ground for equipment. I know alot of what we develope for use in this game ends up on the testing bench for LE/Mill, and most of the true military gear in not available to the private sector. Lets face it, we are the civilians with limited access to equipment.

Aside from newly manufactured full auto weapons (which those of us who have corporations can get access to) what are you referring to? Night vision? IR Lasers? These can all be obtained through proper channels. All the cutting edge optics and rifle systems the military is using today have been influenced by competition shooters. The only hurdle in obtaining them for most people is price.

The testing and evaluation of load bearing gear, holsters, etc we do by using them in competition has been extremely valuable to the manufacturers we give feed back to. If it isn’t comfortable or efficient for the use we put it through every other weekend…it won’t be comfortable or efficient for the people who have to wear it weeks at a time.

If you care to discuss it with me I can tell you of several specific instances where feedback I personally gave to a company was implemented before full production of products being sold to the military was implemented.

I am not a real fan of the "idea" of "Trooper Class". Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the people who want to be the Trooper Class, I just don't think "3gun, the game" is the right place for it. It is sending the wrong idea about 3gun to the masses,

You're running around with an assault rifle, assault handguns and assault shotguns shooting at humanoid targets in situations that are mostly representive of real life scenerios....what you're wearing, what color your shirt and guns are really doesn't matter at that point.

People who are anti-gun hate us merely for owning guns…do you really think they can tell the difference between your JP race gun and a SOPMOD M4? I do not care about offending these people.

Fence sitters are another story…all you need to do with them is expose them to shooting as a safe and fun hobby by taking them shooting, and they are usually converted.

and in some cases rules have to be changed and coarses have to be changed to make Trooper Class fit into the match.

What matches have you shot where trooper class was incorporated into the match? It wasn’t a problem at the 2004 or 2005 Cav Arms matches…and it went incredibly smoothly at the 2005 Ironman match. I dare say that the trooper squad was more efficient simply because we had all our ammo on us, and we didn’t need to run back to our cars after every stage. There were also no calls of “AMMO UP!” during the courses of fire from Trooper shooters as we were better prepared.

To incorporate Trooper into any other match, requires only as much inconvenience as incorporating Heavy Metal/He-Man. Some matches due to the distance between stages and time constraints might not be able to incorporate Trooper Class without some modifications.

I can understand that these shooters want to play too, but the look of fully decked out battle gear in a sea of brightly colored sport shirts is too much. I do like the USPSA general rules of clothing at the match, so it does not look like a bunch of para/military camandos shooting up the countryside. Again, don't get me wrong, I am not against the camo and all the gear, I am just looking from the outside, in.

Most of the Trooper Shooters at the 2005 Ironman Match:

Aside from our ruck sacks how do we look all that much different from any other competitors there?

To anti-gunners a 3 Gun match already looks like a bunch of “para-military commandos shooting up the country side”…who are you afraid to offend? If we offend other shooters by shooting this way…well they need to live and let live. I try to avoid giving other people a hard time about their various shooting sports no matter how asinine I find their rules and procedures to be.

MKuhn,

I agree with you, guns and shooting will never be a PC as we would like it to be. I gave up on that idea along time ago. But we still need to be available for the general masses that do show up. If one person out of a 100, or even a 1000 showed up at the range because they heard alot of shooting going on, it is worth it not to scare them off. Every once and awhile I see a local mayor or public offical show up at a big match to show support to the gun owners of the area, and I am sure public image is on their mind before showing up. I sure everone is aware of the problems with kids and guns, god knows the media does. Well why give them anymore fuel for the fire. I know that we will never get a break from the media, but camo on kids is not a good picture, unless it has something to do with hunting, (and I know, the general public does not like that either).

Look where this politically correct attitude got you in California...all modern firearms with high capacity magazines are banned! Where gun owners are afraid and hide in the closet, try to be PC, it gets them nowhere!

I contrast our activists hereand our gun culture in AZ is loud, offensive, and obnoxious...we haven't had any anti-gun laws passed in many years, and more pro-gun laws are passed every year.

I just remembered something I've seen at matches and read on this forum:

Gunny,

I shoot right handed, and load right handed, in Open Class mostly. So I use Tech tubes when ever I can, but when I need to load by hand, (limited style) I pull ammo from a bandolier that is mounted to a vest I wear...

How is your tac vest any different from the one I wear or anyone else wears? Only real difference I see is you usually wear black...where I prefer green or brown/tan because it doesn't get as hot in the sun.

Edited October 28, 2005 by SinistralRifleman

[scottmilk9]

Go get em Russel. Arrrgggghhhh!!! You know whats sending the wrong idea to people about 3 gunning, is people who have no common sense. People who are sitting back and acting like sheep, people who let the elitists(grand masters) run our sport, we'll never get new shooters in if we keep the same ideas as we had when wheel guns were popular(before semi autos) If your scared of what people are gonna think or what are image is, take up basket weaving, we are shooting guns for christs sake!!!!!

[SinistralRifleman]

The image risk with Trooper class could become a real problem. Perception is a lot and if 3-Gun gets a media rep of being a training ground for private militias we will all suffer.

Paul I have met you and you're a good guy. That said,

Your company specifically markets AR15 style rifles to people by posting pictures on various forums of Security Contractors and Soldiers in Iraq using similar configurations...if you're concerned about image, what is it you are trying to present? If you're concerned about this, MSTN might want to reconsider it's marketing practices.

Just to clarify, I actually think the photos you post and the gear you make are cool...my point is if we start worrying about being PC there are a lot of things we need to worry about, that won't change things one way or the other.

Edited October 27, 2005 by SinistralRifleman

[Garryowen]

This is a game, and we need to keep it in perspective to the real life uses of firearms. I do get caught up in the power of the guns we use, but I also come back to reality when I look at the people who are shooting the game, and the people who are watch us. We need to keep this sport a game and not a military/swat testing ground for equipment. I know alot of what we develope for use in this game ends up on the testing bench for LE/Mill, and most of the true military gear in not available to the private sector. Lets face it, we are the civilians with limited access to equipment. I am not a real fan of the "idea" of "Trooper Class". Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the people who want to be the Trooper Class, I just don't think "3gun, the game" is the right place for it. It is sending the wrong idea about 3gun to the masses, and in some cases rules have to be changed and coarses have to be changed to make Trooper Class fit into the match. I can understand that these shooters want to play too, but the look of fully decked out battle gear in a sea of brightly colored sport shirts is too much. I do like the USPSA general rules of clothing at the match, so it does not look like a bunch of para/military camandos shooting up the countryside. Again, don't get me wrong, I am not against the camo and all the gear, I am just looking from the outside, in.

Exactly, these idjits in Cammo pants and hats (mostly IPSC/USPSA people) with their crazy guns (again mostly IPSC/USPSA people) need to go...That's why we shoot in YELLOW shirts, NEVER wear any camo and don't shoot in ANY Military issue gear. I also like to put stickers on my guns to keep the whole thing lite and fun. I do wear armor when I shoot, but that is just because I don't trust you people....

Bevin, why don't you worry about how FUBAR'ed California has become for gun owners, the whole "lets not draw attention" and keeping it PC stuff has worked so well for you guys.

Edited October 27, 2005 by Garryowen

[Zak Smith]

But calling racing training for driving on the street is not right and neither is calling the shooting sports we practice a training ground for armed conflict.

People shoot the practical sports for many different reasons. It sounds like you don't "call" it training. That's fine, and it's inarguable anyway.

The classical "Combat Triad" is gun-handling, marksmanship, and tactics. I've heard it recently restated as: Mindset, Tactics, Skill, Gear. Practical shooting competitions provide probably the best forum for civilians to regularly practice the skills (gun-handling and marksmanship), and test their gear to make sure it runs. It also provides the opportunity to practice "mindset" to some extent.

[MKuhn]

GO CAV ARMS !!!!!!

There is not one gald dern thing wrong with trooper class other than the kit cost so much.

It’s been down hill for California ever since Frankie and Annett broke up.

Forever

Mell (the gun queer) Kuhn

[PacMan]

Aside from our ruck sacks how do we look all that much different from any other competitors there?

The 50 rounds of shotgun ammo and 'game day faces' you guys carry to all stages :lol:... Just kidding! The CAV ARMS team is ok by me. You guys make running a stage more fun.

Look where this politically correct attitude got you in California...all modern firearms with high capacity magazines are banned! Where gun owners are afraid and hide in the closet, try to be PC, it gets them nowhere!

Amen!

Nice reward wouldn't you say???

Edited October 27, 2005 by PacMan

[TeamGE]

SinistralRifleman,

No offensence taken, and I certainly meant no personal attack to you or Trooper Class. I am just stating my opinion on what I see. Your right in alot of ways. The picture of your team at the MGM Ironman shows a good lookin group of guys who want to play the game that way. I don't want to play that game, and call me (or compare me to) whatever you would like, that is how I feel. Trooper Class is new to 3gun as we know it today, and maybe it will change the way 3gun will be in the future, but I am going to have to voice my opinion about the changes.

Living and shooting in California sucks, that is without question. But I was here first, before the Anti-Gunners and I have to live with that, and I am not ready to give up the fight. If you in AZ think that you pushed out all the Anti-Gunners in your state, then you better pull your heads out of the sand. I don't think your state is as safe as you think and say it is.

My comments about gear that is available to the civilian market stands as I said it, and you pointed out. I have read this thread and watched the discussion head toward eliminating shotguns, to bringing in subguns and other guns that "We" the civilian market, can't get, even though you can. Load bearing gear is great, and if you want to test it for the manufacture, then fine. I might even need or use some of it to carry my stuff, if the stage requires it. But I would rather see it, and call it a tool needed for the sport then a required look for proper attire. Your right, color of your gear and clothes shouldn't matter, but guess what, it does when you are the media, taking color pictures. Camo is not PC (and I know you don't care about being, PC).

Being prepaired for the "game of 3gun" is what it is all about. Getting the equipment set and ready for the stage of fire, and knowing how to use it correctly and safely is what we train for. I can shoot the stage as discribed by the coarse discription, and carry everything I need to get the job done. I do not need to go into battle with 10 times more ammo then required, to get this job done. I will say it for the last time. It is a game, not real life. If the game changes, then I will change accordingly.

[Flexmoney]

Folks,

Brain provides us a place to discuss various aspects of shooting, training, and competing. He doesn't ask at a lot in return.

He does, however, request that we play nice:

(From the Forum Rules)

Attitude

Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful. Please – no antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones...

There is nothing wrong with a spirited discussion. But, lets keep the discussion respectful. I'd like to think we can share our thoughts without referring to fellow shooters in a derogatory manner.

Please honor the wishes of our host.

Kyle F.

Forum Administrator

[GeneralChang]

"Folks,

Brain provides us a place to discuss various aspects of shooting, training, and competing. He doesn't ask at a lot in return."

Brain??? So there is a brain that controls this forum after all.

Edited October 27, 2005 by GeneralChang

[Flexmoney]

Damn...I even used a speel-checker...

[Paule]

Russell,

I tried not to make a personal judgement about Trooper class. Personally, I would like to shoot it on occasion, preferrably in a match that was Trooper only. Has nothing to do with my opine that the perception of media outsiders might encourage them to seize something and twist it to make 3-Gun look like something it isn't. We know it isn't reality, but the image of one of us running around in short pants and a shirt off the back of a carnival barker is not going to be the compelling image that one of Zak in full commando garb might make. (Sorry Zak, you look so wonderfully evil in the MGM pic!).

I am all for getting new folks into the shooting sports. The reality is that a large majority of non-shooters in America would likely be afraid if I knocked on their door in full MOLLE regalia. Doubt there would be much chance of a pleasant discussion on the joy of shooting. But I might have a chance if I showed up unannounced in ad-wear attire. At least the first reaction might be curiosity instead of alarm.

Not saying that anyone should go door to door to recruit, just that the reactions will be similar if a 3-Gun clip is shown to mainstream TV viewers. I just want that one chance to make a first impression to be a successful one.

Just my .02, worth about the same...

[Zak Smith]

They call me Mad Dog Smitty

[Helmut]

"CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG......"

[George]

It sounds like you don't "call" it training

Zak, I do call it training. Training for the crucible of competition :-) It's all about getting better and better at something. I may not have Matt Burkett's sheer ability and focus but I sure do have his desire for getting better at anything I do as long as I am doing it. In motorcycle racing, getting better is all about going faster without dropping the bike. In IPSC style competition shooting, getting better is all about going faster and not dropping points. Both make me better at handling the associated machinery than any mere mortal out there. Let's face it, we are all a whole lot better than almost all the casual shooters out there and absolute shooting gods compared to the unwashed masses that don't even know what a sight picture is.

--

Regards,

[kurtm]

The "classical" combat triad is, Practical marksmanship, gun handling, and mind set. This is a direct quote from Col. Jeff Cooper in 1989, and is found in his literature ever since 1970. A match atmosphere can test the first two, but I don't think mindset can be tested at a match, at least in the classical sense of Orange Gunsite, and the Col. A great refference for mind set is the book, Principles of Modern Defense, by Col. Cooper. As a hint, it isn't about shooting. Cold clear minded rage at a direct personal attack would be a bit hard to do at a match. On the other hand, wearing BDUs is quite easy KURTM

[Zak Smith]

A match atmosphere can test the first two, but I don't think mindset can be tested at a match, at least in the classical sense of Orange Gunsite, and the Col. A great refference for mind set is the book, Principles of Modern Defense, by Col. Cooper. As a hint, it isn't about shooting. Cold clear minded rage at a direct personal attack would be a bit hard to do at a match.

Have read it. I agree.

An example of mindset in a match would be improvising and finishing the stage when your gun takes a dump (single shot AR15 perhaps), or when props don't go "your way." I have seen people do this, and I have seen them have a fit and throw their gear.

[kurtm]

Great reason to have a hot pistol at all times!! Not Quitting is admirable, but it really isn't mind set in the "classical sense". It is problem solving in a non threatening atmosphere. I.E. taking your AR apart to remove a blown primer while standing in the open is problem solving. Taking the AR by it's insubstantial barrel and clubbing the target is mind set; picking up the targets cardboard gun and yelling bang would be mind set, and a qwik eject from the GAME! KURT

[MKuhn]

Kids in camo not “PC” BULL

I have pictures of 3 of my kids in camo. Two in USMC charlie’s, one in USCG c’s.

Now that’s P.C. and I don’t care who you are.

Yours truly,

Mell

[Paule]

I have seen mindset bubble up in a training session once. Transition course from rifle to pistol. Pistol malfed at arms length from last target. Without hesitation and purely reflex, the shooter drew a Yarborough knife from a leg sheath and gutted the paper. Humorous to onlookers until we noticed the look in his eyes. He was all business.