Unprepared At Lamr

[Two Mikes]

I had two shooters on my squad come to the line without loaded mags. After the LAMR, they figured out that they hadn't reloaded their mags. I let them go to the bottom of the shooting order and then called the next shooter up. I made sure the next shooter had enough time to do a good walk through and to put their game face on.

If I was at a major match, what would the RO's do? Assess a procedural (10.1.1)?

[John Baier]

I would and have dropped them down list also. Now if they load a empty mag or forget to charge the gun per the new rules there is nothing we as RO's can do.

8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions

The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in

the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the writ-ten

stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must

not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of

the handgun.

Hope that helps

-John

Edited October 15, 2005 by John Baier

[GuildSF4]

Have had this before, moved shooter down in the stack. Next shooter (that is ready to go) to the line. It happens, although not very often at big matches.

[Barrettone]

I agree...move 'em down, and give the next guy in line a moment to gather himself. Rest assured the squadmates will let the individual know that they do not appreciate someone screwing up their routine when they prepare to execute a COF. Peer pressure is a great thing...isn't it?

Jeff

[Rob Boudrie]

This brings up another sceario which occurs from time to time :

The squad has been given a 5 minute time to review a complex state, and the first shooter was warned at the beginning of the 5 minutes. When asked if he is ready, the shooter responds "No, I am not ready. This is a complex stage and I do not have a plan, not have I been given the same opportunity to plan as the remainder of my squad. Please give me more time or move me down."

Assume there are no volunteers willing to step up and be first.

What do you tell the shooter? Do you tell him "Ready or not, you will start the course of fire or I will issue a DNF and you can arbitrate", or do you give him more time? Assume the Match Director has told you that CRO's need to be strict about the 5 minutes to keep the match on schedule.

[BrianATL]

Ironically both times this happened it involved two guys who were probably doing the most work on the squad, ROing and scoring. So the reason they weren't ready is because they were busy helping others and forgot to get themselves ready. So I thnk they deserved a break which is what happened

Edited October 15, 2005 by BrianATL

[John Baier]

This brings up another sceario which occurs from time to time :

The squad has been given a 5 minute time to review a complex state, and the first shooter was warned at the beginning of the 5 minutes.  When asked if he is ready, the shooter responds "No, I am not ready.  This is a complex stage and I do not have a plan, not have I been given the same opportunity to plan as the remainder of my squad.  Please give me more time or move me down."

Assume there are no volunteers willing to step up and be first.

What do you tell the shooter?  Do you tell him "Ready or not, you will start the course of fire or I will issue a DNF and you can arbitrate", or do you give him more time?  Assume the Match Director has told you that CRO's need to be strict about the 5 minutes to keep the match on schedule.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In this case with a tight time module he'd just have to go or be penalized. Sorry but usually everyone as to go first somtime during the match. It would be complete caos if we let it on at a major. That being said, If we have time and are ahead on our time module I'll give them a minute to get their thought together.

On a side note, there has been times when I'll have the perfect plan set in my mind and as soon as the RO issues the LAMR command it goes to sh*t

-John

[Mistral404]

I always cut the first two shooters slack. Everyone gets the stage walk through in the beginning. But typically, while the scoring of previous shooter is happening, the on deck person gets to do another walk through. So that person gets to participate in the 5 preparation with everyone else and an individual walk through and preparation.

Tapers and brass pickers also get additionally walk throughs.

BTW: All match directors say the same thing, in the interest of keeping the match on schedule. Even at Nationals, some ROs were good about giving eveyone a chance to see the stage--read more than 5 minutes--- while others were less generous. I remember twice the squad has less than 5 minutes because the RO called the first shooter to the line so quickly.

[Nik Habicht]

At the local matches in our area, the match director's are often not around when their turn in the order comes up, because they're busy checking on other stages, talking to prospective shooters, or conducting business with other club members. Generally our squad --- the one on which the match directors and most of the stage designers/builders shoot, just takes note of it and makes a seamless adjustment......

Then, just for fun on the last stage of the day, the MDs and stage designers usually shoot first and scoot to the other pits to direct/supervise teardown......

At bigger matches and Nationals, my squad has almost always had an order ---- and if I'm squad mommy, when calling the order for this stage, I also remind the shooters who are going first and second on the next stage that they are about to be at the top of the order.......

[John Baier]

At bigger matches and Nationals, my squad has almost always had an order ---- and if I'm squad mommy, when calling the order for this stage, I also remind the shooters who are going first and second on the next stage that they are about to be at the top of the order.......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good advice Nik

[wide45]

There are a few competitors who do not like to go first. Coming to the line unprepared is a way they try to avoid it.

One of our newer RO's had the best response I've heard in this situation. He suggested asking the unprepared shooter, "Are you withdrawing from the Match?".

It is a bit rough to tell the shooters to suck it up, and get ready now, but you have to be fair to the other guys.

[ima45dv8]

I had two shooters on my squad come to the line without loaded mags.  After the LAMR, they figured out that they hadn't reloaded their mags.    I let them go to the bottom of the shooting order and then called the next shooter up.  I made sure the next shooter had enough time to do a good walk through and to put their game face on.

If I was at a major match, what would the RO's do?  Assess a procedural (10.1.1)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mike, I'm not sure 10.1.1 applies in this case ("....fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing."). Think of that as more applicable to someone not performing some action mandated in the WSB. 10.2.2 is almost identical, except it describes the dreaded "significant advantage" scenario and how multiple penalties may be given.

Move 'em down and bring the next shooter who is ready to the line as quickly as possible. This saves valuable time which can be used later to tease the hell out of them for forgetting to reload their mags (even if they had a good reason -- no sense wasting a perfect opportunity ).

...Mark

[Rob Boudrie]

In this case with a tight time module he'd just have to go or be penalized. Sorry but usually everyone as to go first somtime during the match.  It would be complete caos if we let it on at a major.  That being said,  If we have time and are ahead on our time module I'll give them a minute to get their thought together.

On a side note, there has been times when I'll have the perfect plan set in my mind and as soon as the RO issues the LAMR command it goes to sh*t

-John

The real solution is to avoid stages where either a walk-through > 5 minutes or repeated observation of moving props is required to compete effectively.

But, back to the issue and for the sake of discussion - under what rule would you assess a penalty? DNF for failure to start when told? Unsportsmanlike conduct? When push comes to shove, a specific rule must be used when applying a penalty and I wonder which one you would use.

[Schutzenmeister]

But, back to the issue and for the sake of discussion - under what rule would you assess a penalty?  DNF for failure to start when told?  Unsportsmanlike conduct?  When push comes to shove, a specific rule must be used when applying a penalty and I wonder which one you would use.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rob ...

The closest I think I can find is 6.6.1. It is a rather severe penalty, but if you have a problem child, it may be appropriate. Most folks I know would rather go first and get a score than to zero the stage because they weren't ready, had no real excuse, and were frequent transgressors in this regard.

[AWLAZS]

This brings up another sceario which occurs from time to time :

The squad has been given a 5 minute time to review a complex state, and the first shooter was warned at the beginning of the 5 minutes.  When asked if he is ready, the shooter responds "No, I am not ready.  This is a complex stage and I do not have a plan, not have I been given the same opportunity to plan as the remainder of my squad.  Please give me more time or move me down."

Assume there are no volunteers willing to step up and be first.

What do you tell the shooter?  Do you tell him "Ready or not, you will start the course of fire or I will issue a DNF and you can arbitrate", or do you give him more time?  Assume the Match Director has told you that CRO's need to be strict about the 5 minutes to keep the match on schedule.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just call my first shooter to the line and clear the range. They are told in the breifing that they get 5 to figure things out. The order is known at that time also.

It takes the I am not ready out of the picture.

[Barrettone]

I always cut the first two shooters slack.  Everyone gets the stage walk through in the beginning.  But typically, while the scoring of previous shooter is happening, the on deck person gets to do another walk through.  So that person gets to participate in the 5 preparation with everyone else and an individual walk through and preparation.

Tapers and brass pickers also get additionally walk throughs. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mistral404:

I understand your logic, and have practiced this in the past as well. BUT, it was pointed out to me (by high ranking officials), that you are then giving those competitors an unfair advantage. In THEORY, this practice would seem to work, but unless ALL the other CRO's are doing the same thing at that match, then the shooters who happen to be shooting 1'st and 2'nd on YOUR stage are getting more time, while the others who go 1'st and 2'nd on the remaining stages do not get that advantage. We are charged with providing a fair and level playing field for ALL competitors, so this flys in the face of that logic I'm afraid. I felt that I was doing a good thing, but in fact, it was wrong.

I do feel though, that a shooter who, at the last minute, is moved up in the order, deserves what they would otherwise have gotten...and that is the same amount of preparation time that they would have had as the COF was being pasted and scored before their scheduled turn. By being summoned to the line prematurely, that time shouldn't be taken away.

My .02,

Jeff

Edited October 16, 2005 by Barrettone

[LPatterson]

But, back to the issue and for the sake of discussion - under what rule would you assess a penalty?   DNF for failure to start when told?  Unsportsmanlike conduct?  When push comes to shove, a specific rule must be used when applying a penalty and I wonder which one you would use.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rob ...

The closest I think I can find is 6.6.1. It is a rather severe penalty, but if you have a problem child, it may be appropriate. Most folks I know would rather go first and get a score than to zero the stage because they weren't ready, had no real excuse, and were frequent transgressors in this regard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't that think would hold up in Arb because the shooter was present. I would move the shooter down & contact the MD to approve the shooter's opportunity to shoot the stage.

[driver8M3]

Mistral404:

I understand your logic, and have practiced this in the past as well.  BUT, it was pointed out to me (by high ranking officials), that you are then giving those competitors an unfair advantage.  In THEORY, this practice would seem to work, but unless ALL the other CRO's are doing the same thing at that match, then the shooters who happen to be shooting 1'st and 2'nd on YOUR stage are getting more time, while the others who go 1'st and 2'nd on the remaining stages do not get that advantage.  We are charged with providing a fair and level playing field for ALL competitors, so this flys in the face of that logic I'm afraid.  I felt that I was doing a good thing, but in fact, it was wrong. 

I do feel though, that a shooter who, at the last minute, is moved up in the order, deserves what they would otherwise have gotten...and that is the same amount of preparation time that they would have had as the COF was being pasted and scored before their scheduled turn.  By being summoned to the line prematurely, that time shouldn't be taken away.

My .02,

Jeff

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

good post jeff...

[driver8M3]

whoops...

Edited October 16, 2005 by driver8M3

[Schutzenmeister]

[The closest I think I can find is 6.6.1.  [...]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't that think would hold up in Arb because the shooter was present. I would move the shooter down & contact the MD to approve the shooter's opportunity to shoot the stage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It might or might not hold up ... as you suggest it would be the MDs call as to whethero or not to allow him to shoot after being moved down. The argument COULD be made...

It does rather irk me (and most folks) when someone gains a reputation for habitually doing this though!

Edited October 16, 2005 by Schutzenmeister

[Nik Habicht]

I always cut the first two shooters slack.  Everyone gets the stage walk through in the beginning.  But typically, while the scoring of previous shooter is happening, the on deck person gets to do another walk through.  So that person gets to participate in the 5 preparation with everyone else and an individual walk through and preparation.

Tapers and brass pickers also get additionally walk throughs. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mistral404:

I understand your logic, and have practiced this in the past as well. BUT, it was pointed out to me (by high ranking officials), that you are then giving those competitors an unfair advantage. In THEORY, this practice would seem to work, but unless ALL the other CRO's are doing the same thing at that match, then the shooters who happen to be shooting 1'st and 2'nd on YOUR stage are getting more time, while the others who go 1'st and 2'nd on the remaining stages do not get that advantage. We are charged with providing a fair and level playing field for ALL competitors, so this flys in the face of that logic I'm afraid. I felt that I was doing a good thing, but in fact, it was wrong.

I do feel though, that a shooter who, at the last minute, is moved up in the order, deserves what they would otherwise have gotten...and that is the same amount of preparation time that they would have had as the COF was being pasted and scored before their scheduled turn. By being summoned to the line prematurely, that time shouldn't be taken away.

My .02,

Jeff

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jeff,

With respect, that sounds totally boneheaded to me. The responsibility for ensuring that CROs officiate consistently from stage to stage rests with the RM ---- so it seems, since things like walkthrough time enforcement are addressed during the staff meeting, it wouldn't be terribly difficult for an RM to ensure that all CROs give the first shooter a chance to walk the course after the five minute group walkthrough has concluded. All Shooters should have the same opportunity to shoot every stage in the match, as far as that's in our control --- and this is......

[driver8M3]

Jeff,

With respect, that sounds totally boneheaded to me.  The responsibility for ensuring that CROs officiate consistently from stage to stage rests with the RM ---- so it seems, since things like walkthrough time enforcement are addressed during the staff meeting, it wouldn't be terribly difficult for an RM to ensure that all CROs give the first shooter a chance to walk the course after the five minute group walkthrough has concluded.  All Shooters should have the same opportunity to shoot every stage in the match, as far as that's in our control --- and this is......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i think what jeff was talking about, and what i agreed with, was freelancing by ROs. if the RM decides to run the match with the 1st shooter getting an extra minute, that would be cool...

[richardschennberg]

I have never seen a match run behind. Since you should give the on-deck shooter a minute to prepare mentally, it might not take much longer to load magazines. Ask the shooter if he wants other competitors to help load magazines, or if he would like to be moved back one or two spots in the shooting order.

In the unlikely event that your stage is in fact running behind schedule, then by all means tell the next shooter that he is up and move the unprepared shooter to the bottom.

Richard

Schennberg.com

[Nik Habicht]

Jeff,

With respect, that sounds totally boneheaded to me.  The responsibility for ensuring that CROs officiate consistently from stage to stage rests with the RM ---- so it seems, since things like walkthrough time enforcement are addressed during the staff meeting, it wouldn't be terribly difficult for an RM to ensure that all CROs give the first shooter a chance to walk the course after the five minute group walkthrough has concluded.  All Shooters should have the same opportunity to shoot every stage in the match, as far as that's in our control --- and this is......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i think what jeff was talking about, and what i agreed with, was freelancing by ROs. if the RM decides to run the match with the 1st shooter getting an extra minute, that would be cool...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I grasped that ---- but I'm perturbed that there are "high ranking officials" who are disseminating silly stuff like this, when they could just as easily fix the problem ---- by having RMs address these sorts of things as basic housekeeping issues. That way no freelancing is necessary --- and matches aren't decided by who was up first on the most complicated stage.......

[Barrettone]

Jeff,

With respect, that sounds totally boneheaded to me.  The responsibility for ensuring that CROs officiate consistently from stage to stage rests with the RM ---- so it seems, since things like walkthrough time enforcement are addressed during the staff meeting, it wouldn't be terribly difficult for an RM to ensure that all CROs give the first shooter a chance to walk the course after the five minute group walkthrough has concluded.  All Shooters should have the same opportunity to shoot every stage in the match, as far as that's in our control --- and this is......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i think what jeff was talking about, and what i agreed with, was freelancing by ROs. if the RM decides to run the match with the 1st shooter getting an extra minute, that would be cool...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I grasped that ---- but I'm perturbed that there are "high ranking officials" who are disseminating silly stuff like this, when they could just as easily fix the problem ---- by having RMs address these sorts of things as basic housekeeping issues. That way no freelancing is necessary --- and matches aren't decided by who was up first on the most complicated stage.......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nik...I agree with you. This matter should be taken up at the staff meeting, but in all my years of officiating at majors, sadly, it isn't. It also is not my call as a CRO on an individual stage, so I cannot freelance on such things, as I incorrectly did in the past...simply thinking I was doing a good thing for the shooters.

Cheers,

Jeff