10.5.8 - Dq - Unsafe Gun Handling

[D.Hayden]

10.5.8

Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard while clearing a malfunction where the competitor clearly moves the firearm

away from aiming at targets.

Am I reading this right? If the shooter has thier finger in the trigger guard, and continues to point the muzzle at the target? No DQ?

If so, why is this different than loading/unloading:

10.5.9

Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading.

[reneet]

Muzzle direction

[D.Hayden]

Thanks Renee, I guess my real quesiton was, if you were point the muzzle at a target 2 meters away, with your finger on the trigger (exact same gun muzzle direction, etc.):

clearing a jam = OK

reloading = DQ?

[IPSCDRL]

Thanks Renee, I guess my real quesiton was, if you were point the muzzle at a target 2 meters away, with your finger on the trigger (exact same gun muzzle direction, etc.):

clearing a jam = OK

reloading = DQ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep. I have three targets directly in front of me and after firing the sixth shot, I press the mag release and reach for a fresh mag. At this point I notice a mike on the third target and raise the gun back up to my line of sight and fire before slamming the fresh mag home. No DQ.

[D.Hayden]

Micheal, just got back to this, I was in Vegas

But this is true, while clearing a jam?

Only looking for the difference between 10.5.8 and 10.5.9

In both cases, the scenario would be finger in trigger guard, pointing at a legal target.

1) Your clearing a Jam

2) Your reloading

It seems to me the first is more apt to be unsafe

[Nik Habicht]

Micheal, just got back to this, I was in Vegas

But this is true, while clearing a jam?

Only looking for the difference between 10.5.8 and 10.5.9

In both cases, the scenario would be finger in trigger guard, pointing at a legal target.

1) Your clearing a Jam

2) Your reloading

It seems to me the first is more apt to be unsafe

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not if you're just racking the slide to clear the jam.....

This pretty much reminds me of the problem that some ROs have with loaded sight pictures ---- A few seconds later, the shooter is going to be pointing the same loaded gun at the same targets, with his finger on the trigger, and he's actually going to pull the trigger this time. The only difference in the two scenarios is on which side of the start buzzer they occur. And, if the gun goes off during the sight picture, we have a hole in a target, and rules to deal with the shooter's actions....

Now, if someone lowers the gun, and potentially bends or rotates the wrist and changes the muzzle direction while trying to figure out which jam he has, and how to fix it, I for one, would really prefer it if the shooter's finger were off the trigger....

[D.Hayden]

It just seems odd to me.

Racking the gun, or pulling a stove pipe case out, or a jammed round, all with the finger on the trigger is ok, but dropping an unloaded magazine, no.

[ima45dv8]

It just seems odd to me. 

Racking the gun, or pulling a stove pipe case out, or a jammed round, all with the finger on the trigger is ok,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As long as the competitor does not move the firearm away from aiming at targets, yes.

but dropping an unloaded magazine, no.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not aware of any such rule in USPSA/IPSC. Could you be thinking of IDPA?

...Mark

[D.Hayden]

With your finger in the trigger guard, dropping a magazine would violate 10.5.9 right?

[wide45]

Some rules that have been with us so long, no one remembers why we have them.

One logical speculation I heard, was that in the old days they used to train to clear a stovepipe by wiping the weak hand across the top of the slide. The gun was kept on the target, and no need was seen to clear the trigger finger. The rule was written to allow this technique.

Not known to be true, but it sounds good....

[ima45dv8]

With your finger in the trigger guard, dropping a magazine would violate 10.5.9 right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed.

Sorry, I didn't know you meant "with finger in trigger guard" when you mentioned dropping the magazine.

[MarkS_A18138]

Ok, I have a question! If a shooter is reloading and the gun goes off as he puts the mag in but hits the target right in front of him is he DQ'd? I say yes, but he could also say he was taking the shot from retention!( i think thats what IDPA calls it) Target was 2 yards away!!! I saw this happen twice with no DQ but both times the target was hit in the A zone!

Thanks

[XRe]

10.4.3 doesn't make any distinction for if the round hits a target or not, or if the gun is pointed at a target or not - the way the rule is written, it's an AD, either way. If you light one off while in the process of reloading, it's a DQ. Whether or not you can later successfully arbitrate that you intended to discharge that shot would probably depend on the circumstances....

[ima45dv8]

10.4.3 doesn't make any distinction for if the round hits a target or not, or if the gun is pointed at a target or not - the way the rule is written, it's an AD, either way. If you light one off while in the process of reloading, it's a DQ. Whether or not you can later successfully arbitrate that you intended to discharge that shot would probably depend on the circumstances....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.......and the look on your face when the gun went off. If I saw the shooter with an "Oh Shit" expression, it's a bus ticket.

...Mark

[open17]

Ok, I have a question! If a shooter is reloading and the gun goes off as he puts the mag in but hits the target right in front of him is he DQ'd? I say yes, but he could also say he was taking the shot from retention!( i think thats what IDPA calls it) Target was 2 yards away!!! I saw this happen twice with no DQ but both times the target was hit in the A zone!

Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I look at that situation this way: If the shot cycled the action and picked up a

fresh round off of the magazine, then the reload was completed before the shot.

No DQ. If the shot cycled and did not pick up a fresh round, then the shot

was fired during the reload. DQ.

Unless of course I was looking directly at the trigger finger etc. when the shot went off. If the finger wasn't anywhere near the trigger, then it's a malfunction.

Shooter would be stopped, but no DQ as per 10.4.9.

[outerlimits]

saw a scary DQ at the 3G nats on saturday...shooter had just reloaded his shotgun with slugs via tech loader, and while turning the gun back over, touched the trigger and burried a slug into the ground not too far in front of him. pucker began almost immediately, i'm sure. it's called unsafe gun handling, period...game, set & match.