Stupid question: multiple holsters at same time

[-JCN-]

Hello friends,

 

I’m new but am really enjoying the sport. Please be gentle with me!

 

There’s a local club that does a low key indoor Level I Classifier match that usually only has ~15 people or so. If you shoot more than one gun, there’s usually only a brief break and the “safety table” is far away in another room. 
 

So my stupid question is: If I shot PCC and a handgun, could I leave the handgun holstered while I shoot PCC?

 

Since 3-gun exists, I don’t know that there is an explicit rule against it but I wanted to ask. 
 

My follow up super stupid question is:

Could I have TWO holstered handguns on at the same time? 
 

I know the likely solution is just shoot first and last on a stage and go to the safety table. Or have the RO watch me bag and unbag it. But please humor me! I thought maybe the PCC / handgun might not be out of the question. 

[Sarge]

No and no. Rules are clear only one gun

5.1.9

Edited January 16, 2020 by Sarge

[rowdyb]

The words "low key" are often code words for "if it suits us we do whatever we want for the sake of ease". Could that be the case here?

 

If I were you I'd lobby more for a closer safe table and get really good about switching outer belts.

 

I've been a 2 gun shooter before at matches and as efficient and practiced as I am I am more of a taker than a giver when shooting two guns. Even if the margin is small you end up doing more to help yourself than the squad/match.

 

If you get limited range time, have a new toy or the match is small I truly get the desire to shoot two guns. I've done it. But I've found it works best for everyone else if I do it by shooting the same gun in two divisions. The least obtrusive way in my experience. 

[RJH]

Well. there are the rules and then there is what happens.  I would ask your match director, they might consider it fine.  If they don't,  bagging your pistol between stages will be the easiest.  And I would probably skip the 2 holstered handgun stuff

[-JCN-]

17 minutes ago, Sarge said:

No and no. Rules are clear only one gun

5.1.9

Thanks! Agree that it’s probably no and no. Probably the intent of the rule means can’t “use and/or wear.” Because with PCC and handgun would be using one and wearing the other, but I think you are right on the intent of the rule. 

 

10 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

The words "low key" are often code words for "if it suits us we do whatever we want for the sake of ease". Could that be the case here?

 

If I were you I'd lobby more for a closer safe table and get really good about switching outer belts.

 

I've been a 2 gun shooter before at matches and as efficient and practiced as I am I am more of a taker than a giver when shooting two guns. Even if the margin is small you end up doing more to help yourself than the squad/match.

 

If you get limited range time, have a new toy or the match is small I truly get the desire to shoot two guns. I've done it. But I've found it works best for everyone else if I do it by shooting the same gun in two divisions. The least obtrusive way in my experience. 

Agreed. But I’m wanting to classify in PCC and revolver (it’s a Classifier match). 

 

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

Well. there are the rules and then there is what happens.  I would ask your match director, they might consider it fine.  If they don't,  bagging your pistol between stages will be the easiest.  And I would probably skip the 2 holstered handgun stuff

I think bagging is probably the answer since I’ll have to bag PCC anyway. I can just carry the small revolver bag up to the line and rebag when done with string. 
 

Thanks everyone for the prompt replies!

[nasty618]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

there are the rules and then there is what happens.  I would ask your match director, they might consider it fine.

 

They might consider breaking a 180 fine as long as nobody was swept. Or they might consider that drawing the gun and dry firing right on the stage as a walk through before the match even starts is just a verbal "cant do that". 

 

Are we saying that these practices are acceptable as long as the MD at L1s says it's OK?

Edited January 16, 2020 by nasty618

[Sarge]

32 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

 

They might consider breaking a 180 fine as long as nobody was swept. Or they might consider that drawing the gun and dry firing right on the stage as a walk through before the match even starts is just a verbal "cant do that". 

 

Are we saying that these practices are acceptable as long as the MD at L1s says it's OK?

Agreed. It sounds like a sanctioned USPSA match. No matter how low key it is the MD has no leeway when it comes to the rules.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, -JCN- said:

Thanks! Agree that it’s probably no and no. Probably the intent of the rule means can’t “use and/or wear.” Because with PCC and handgun would be using one and wearing the other, but I think you are right on the intent of the rule

Did you read the rules?

10.5.7 was referenced in the rule I quoted.

”10.5.7 Wearing or using more than one firearm at any point in time during a course of fire.“

 

[ima45dv8]

52 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

They might consider breaking a 180 fine as long as nobody was swept. Or they might consider that drawing the gun and dry firing right on the stage as a walk through before the match even starts is just a verbal "cant do that". 

 

Are we saying that these practices are acceptable as long as the MD at L1s says it's OK?

We can't really say this is what's happening based on the limited information received. BUT, just thinking out loud about how some 'outlaw' L1s might be run. No, those conditions would not be acceptable, regardless of the MDs position. Especially if they want to call it a USPSA match in any way.

[Sarge]

8 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

We can't really say this is what's happening based on the limited information received. BUT, just thinking out loud about how some 'outlaw' L1s might be run. No, those conditions would not be acceptable, regardless of the MDs position. Especially if they want to call it a USPSA match in any way.

Well, he said it's a Level I classifier match. That means it has to be a legal match right?

Edited January 16, 2020 by Sarge

[ima45dv8]

You would think so, but the mention of "low key" does raise the radar. 

 

[nasty618]

Low key... classifier... at a private range.. where the new GMs are made in a matter of a single match?  Too soon?

 

[Balakay]

12 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

Low key... classifier... at a private range.. where the new GMs are made in a matter of a single match?  Too soon?

 

[-JCN-]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Did you read the rules?

10.5.7 was referenced in the rule I quoted.

”10.5.7 Wearing or using more than one firearm at any point in time during a course of fire.“

 

It basically says what the other rule says and I agree with the intent of the rule. I am just pointing out that some jerk (not me) might still say that the OR is the issue that might make PCC and handgun still viable.  Because a jerk could say: I was not wearing more than one firearm. I was not using more than one firearm. The OR statement probably was meant to be an AND/OR as the intent. 

 

31 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

You would think so, but the mention of "low key" does raise the radar. 

 

 

16 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

Low key... classifier... at a private range.. where the new GMs are made in a matter of a single match?  Too soon?

 

Sorry guys. “Low key” wasn’t accurately descriptive enough. That’s not a fair description. 
 

It’s a newer club that most shooters are C/D/U so they aren’t the most experienced at running matches, but they try and do things by the book. No reshoots, but they do allow running multiple divisions as do a lot of clubs.  
 

I just didn’t want to put them in the situation that they’d have to be in an uncomfortable situation. 
 

Does everyone agree that the simplest solution is that I use a chamber flag for the PCC and when shooting handgun, I bring my revolver up in a zippered bag to the RO to hand me to “make ready?”

[Sarge]

Ok.

as to the simplest solution, don’t shoot two guns?

 If you insist on shooting another gun, bring the gun to the line, Unbag it at make ready, throw bag on ground, shoot the stage, put gun back in bag after clear. Leave the RO out of it if you can.

  Of course if the shooters there don’t shoot at other bigger clubs then I guess you can hold each other’s stuff including RO’s. Just don’t be surprised if other match RO’s aren’t as accommodating 

[-JCN-]

13 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Ok.

as to the simplest solution, don’t shoot two guns?

 If you insist on shooting another gun, bring the gun to the line, Unbag it at make ready, throw bag on ground, shoot the stage, put gun back in bag after clear. Leave the RO out of it if you can.

  Of course if the shooters there don’t shoot at other bigger clubs then I guess you can hold each other’s stuff including RO’s. Just don’t be surprised if other match RO’s aren’t as accommodating 

Thanks! That’s what I’m trying to determine. What’s kosher and what’s not. 
 

I can definitely leave the RO out of it if they don’t need to be part of it. I was just trying to figure what’s allowed. 
 

Bagging protocol question:

After finishing the COF and they say “unload and show clear” that’s pretty self explanatory. 
 

When they say “hammer and holster,” I can skip holster and just “hammer and bag it” correct?

 

It’s not following the RO command because I am not holstering it, but confirming that it’s okay to bag instead of holstering on that command. Correct?

 

Bags aren’t explicitly talked about in Rule 8.3

Edited January 16, 2020 by -JCN-

[RJH]

3 hours ago, nasty618 said:

 

They might consider breaking a 180 fine as long as nobody was swept. Or they might consider that drawing the gun and dry firing right on the stage as a walk through before the match even starts is just a verbal "cant do that". 

 

Are we saying that these practices are acceptable as long as the MD at L1s says it's OK?

 

We don't even care about sweeping 180s, long as no one gets shot.  And long as you cover the sights on pistol while you are dryfiring the stage you are good to go, we don't allow sighting devices, we are strict on that rule

Edited January 16, 2020 by RJH

[Sarge]

18 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

Thanks! That’s what I’m trying to determine. What’s kosher and what’s not. 
 

I can definitely leave the RO out of it if they don’t need to be part of it. I was just trying to figure what’s allowed. 
 

Bagging protocol question:

After finishing the COF and they say “unload and show clear” that’s pretty self explanatory. 
 

When they say “hammer and holster,” I can skip holster and just “hammer and bag it” correct?

 

It’s not following the RO command because I am not holstering it, but confirming that it’s okay to bag instead of holstering on that command. Correct?

 

Bags aren’t explicitly talked about in Rule 8.3

Correct. Holstered/bagged both result in inert gun. RO’s can use supplemental commands too. Usually last stage of the day we will bag everybody on the stage. I generally say something like show me clear, hammer down, bag it.

[-JCN-]

Thank you! 

[Diver123]

8.3.7.3 suggests that a pcc still has to be flagged to be bagged.  Flagged carbines may also be cased at this time and transported off the stage in the case.

[rowdyb]

Having a safe area in every bay makes this tons easier for you to juggle.

[IVC]

On 1/16/2020 at 5:10 AM, -JCN- said:

Could I have TWO holstered handguns on at the same time? 

While you indeed cannot have two guns at any time (DQ rule 10.5.7), you can indeed have two holsters on your belt.

 

However, this would put you at a big disadvantage at a classifier match since at least one of those holsters would be in an awkward position. Depending on the division you shoot, you might be limited in where each holster can be on the belt, making it even worse. At least it works if you shoot PCC and have a belt with a holster - you don't use it for PCC and it can be positioned correctly for the other division. This is completely acceptable, provided you never have both during a COF. 

[IVC]

On 1/16/2020 at 8:28 AM, -JCN- said:

Does everyone agree that the simplest solution is that I use a chamber flag for the PCC and when shooting handgun, I bring my revolver up in a zippered bag to the RO to hand me to “make ready?”

Either that, or just go to the safety area, bag your PCC and unbag/holster your revolver. That will be a bit less confusion if the RO is not certified.

[IVC]

On 1/16/2020 at 9:30 AM, -JCN- said:

When they say “hammer and holster,” I can skip holster and just “hammer and bag it” correct?

Technically, it's a two step process. First, you must comply with 8.3.7.3 which requires you to holster (the word "must"). The rule only allows carbines to be cased at this time, but not handguns. Then, you technically have to ask the RO to let you case your gun (issue a command) since that is the only exception under 10.5.1 that would allow you to handle your gun once holstered (and, if he has already issued the "Range is Clear" command, he should not allow you to bag, he should send you to the safety area). 

 

I would expect this to change in the future rule updates and explicitly allow bagging of any gun at "if clear cylinder/hammer closed/down flag/holster." At this time, I see it as a sort of gray area where the "must holster" part of 8.3.7.3 is skipped and the handgun is bagged instead. 

[IVC]

On 1/16/2020 at 5:34 AM, RJH said:

Well. there are the rules and then there is what happens.  I would ask your match director, they might consider it fine.  If they don't,  bagging your pistol between stages will be the easiest.  And I would probably skip the 2 holstered handgun stuff

 

On 1/16/2020 at 9:41 AM, RJH said:

 

We don't even care about sweeping 180s, long as no one gets shot.  And long as you cover the sights on pistol while you are dryfiring the stage you are good to go, we don't allow sighting devices, we are strict on that rule

I though your second post was sarcastic, but based on your initial post I'm no longer sure...

 

No, the rules are NOT optional at L1 matches. ALL rules apply at ALL times. Just because there are some exemptions for L1 matches, that doesn't mean those rules do not apply, quite the opposite - the rules apply and they specifically allow certain limited deviations at L1 matches. For example, rules 1.1.5 mandates "freestyle" but it contains "except as specified below," where rule 1.1.5.1 now creates a narrow exemption for L1 matches.

 

A level 1 match cannot use/invent/implement ANY rule that is not covered in the rule book. This means that if a competitor shows up at the match, he can go to the safety area with magazines on the belt whether the local crowd likes it or not. He can flip-and-catch the last round whether the RO (or "RO") thinks it's unsafe or not. He can insert empty magazines in the gun in the safety area and he can pull the trigger with the loaded magazine in the gun after "Make Ready" as long as he doesn't fire a round.