Moving targets cause illegal stage?

[Wrist Shot]

Some interesting disagreement among the local officials about a stage at a recent match. 

 

Start position at a port through which there were 2 Cardboard targets and a popper/activator that were only available through the port (5 shots). The popper activated a swinger with 2 targets (4 shots). That’s 9 shots through the port as most chose to shoot it. The 2 moving targets were available at rest from the port and were also available from other areas of the course after activation but not available at rest. The swingers were not scored as NPM as they remained visible at the starting port. 

 

One point of of view is that the stage was illegal because there were more than 8 shots required from one port AFTER the swingers were at rest. I couldn’t think of a rule that would make that true but thought I’d throw it out to you guys.

[IVC]

Are they available from another location at some point? Yes. Is it possible to engage targets from such location? Yes (assuming those are regular swingers that will swing for a period of time). Per rule 1.2.1.3, the course does not require more than 8 shots from a single location. 

 

 

[Joe4d]

Id say it could be legal or illegal depending on the swing time..
I mean if if it swung once and stopped,, and only Usan Bolt could get to the next position to engage it,,, you probably have an illegal stage.
If a shooter could shoot all, activate the swinger,, and Fat Albert and the junkyard gang could make it to the next position, scratch his butt and still have time to shoot at the swinger,,, stage meets the rule of not REQUIRING more than 8.
But jeesh why do this ? As a MD,,, keep it simple,, why invite conflict... coulda have created the same challenge with 1 steel, 1 paper, 1, activator,,, then 2 +2

Edited January 2, 2020 by Joe4d

[bret]

Swinger was still swinging after the stage was shot, so it was available from a second position at all times the stage was being shot, even with a slow shooter, I saw people engage it from the 2nd position.

 

Stage was legal.

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

This is an interesting conundrum,

While the target IS available elsewhere, you have to get to it soon enough, but if say a shooter, shot the activator then his gun broke and he spent the full 2 min fixing it on the clock as allowed, then shot the other targets from that location, the swinger would likely be stopped and they would HAVE to engage the swinger from the port.

I would say the stage was illegal because with a worst case scenario you must shoot 9 through the port.

 

That said if it was too late to fix it, I would just let match management know so they can learn from, and then have a good time shooting the stage as is

 

 

 

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

This is an interesting conundrum,

While the target IS available elsewhere, you have to get to it soon enough, but if say a shooter, shot the activator then his gun broke and he spent the full 2 min fixing it on the clock as allowed, then shot the other targets from that location, the swinger would likely be stopped and they would HAVE to engage the swinger from the port.

I would say the stage was illegal because with a worst case scenario you must shoot 9 through the port.

 

 

I don't think the rules say anything about imaginative worst case scenarios. your logic would also apply to people who simply suck at shooting, and can't make some of the shots from optional locations.

[CHA-LEE]

Illegal stage due to too many rounds from the port. Moving target position is ultimately represented by it's "Resting" position. It doesn't matter how long or short the duration of the movement is.

[MikeBurgess]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

 

I don't think the rules say anything about imaginative worst case scenarios. your logic would also apply to people who simply suck at shooting, and can't make some of the shots from optional locations.

well there is actually a rule for that,

 

1.1.6 Difficulty – USPSA matches present varied degrees of difficulty. No shooting challenge or time limit may be appealed as being prohibitive. This does not apply to non-shooting challenges, which should reasonably allow for differences in competitor’s height and physical build.

 

from what I have been told by a local RMI a swinger stopping is not the same as a time limit because it is not a defined period of time, (i ran a all disappearing target stage with several moving targets as a fixed time, and said that when they were gone time was up)

 

[bret]

33 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

This is an interesting conundrum,

While the target IS available elsewhere, you have to get to it soon enough, but if say a shooter, shot the activator then his gun broke and he spent the full 2 min fixing it on the clock as allowed, then shot the other targets from that location, the swinger would likely be stopped and they would HAVE to engage the swinger from the port.

I would say the stage was illegal because with a worst case scenario you must shoot 9 through the port.

 

That said if it was too late to fix it, I would just let match management know so they can learn from, and then have a good time shooting the stage as is

 

 

 

Even after 2 minutes or more, the swinger would still be moving and available from at least one other view, or location.

Not that it matters as all rules should be followed in all USPSA matches, but this match only recognized Limited, Open, Carry Optics and PCC, no one was at a disadvantage taking 9 shots or more from the port (1st Position), no one was forced to take more than 8 shots from the Port.

You could have shot the activator, the 2 static and moved and then shot swinger with 2 targets from 2 other locations.

Even if you had a major malfunction that took 2 minutes to clear, the swinger would still be available from other views.

One guy on my squad did bring it up with the RM, it was our last stage and we were the last squad to shoot that stage, not sure what the guy expected to happen, other than pissing off the RM.

It was a legal stage and no one was at a disadvantage because of being able to take 9 or more shots from that port.

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by bret

[MikeBurgess]

3 minutes ago, bret said:

It was a Illegal stage and no one was at a disadvantage because of being able to take 9 or more shots from that port.

Fixed it, note I did not change the nobody was disadvantaged part, it is quite easy to have a stage fall afoul of the rules and at the same time not be fun and fair.

3 minutes ago, bret said:

One guy on my squad did bring it up with the RM, it was our last stage and we were the last squad to shoot that stage, not sure what the guy expected to happen, other than pissing off the RM.

Hopefully he was just hoping to bring it to his awareness to make it into a learning moment, and not cause a stink about it.

 

I have both presented illegal stages at my match and pointed out illegal stages at other matches (up to L3 matches that many), if handled correctly in the end everyone learns and nobody gets too upset.  (I'll admit that pointing things out sometimes hurts peoples feelings in the moment, but normally as long as the pointer isn't a d%#$ about it people get over it pretty quickly)

 

[bret]

Just now, MikeBurgess said:

Fixed it, note I did not change the nobody was disadvantaged part, it is quite easy to have a stage fall afoul of the rules and at the same time not be fun and fair.

Hopefully he was just hoping to bring it to his awareness to make it into a learning moment, and not cause a stink about it.

 

I have both presented illegal stages at my match and pointed out illegal stages at other matches (up to L3 matches that many), if handled correctly in the end everyone learns and nobody gets too upset.  (I'll admit that pointing things out sometimes hurts peoples feelings in the moment, but normally as long as the pointer isn't a d%#$ about it people get over it pretty quickly)

 

Mike were there?

I don't think you were, so you have no idea what the condition or location of the stage was or how it could be shot.

I shot the stage and saw the stage, did you?

One girl on my squad shot the activator, the static 2 targets and 1 target on the swinger and then shot the 2nd target on the swinger from her 2nd position.

we looked at it after the issue of being illegal was brought up, and I could see 2 if not 3 other locations the swinger could be shot from.

It was a fun and fair stage, more importantly It was a legal stage, just because you can take more than 8 shots from one view does not make it an illegal stage.

Funny thing is the guy on my squad that complained about it, got away with 6 procedurals due to a foot fault on a previous stage, I guess when an R.O. overlooks rules that benefitted him, it was ok, but he thought this was an illegal stage and complained to complain about i guess.

it was a great end of the year match, $50 level II and they gave away 2 guns (Sig 365's), plus lunch and iced water on the stages.

[MikeBurgess]

19 minutes ago, bret said:

Mike were there?

I don't think you were, so you have no idea what the condition or location of the stage was or how it could be shot.

I shot the stage and saw the stage, did you?

One girl on my squad shot the activator, the static 2 targets and 1 target on the swinger and then shot the 2nd target on the swinger from her 2nd position.

we looked at it after the issue of being illegal was brought up, and I could see 2 if not 3 other locations the swinger could be shot from.

It was a fun and fair stage, more importantly It was a legal stage, just because you can take more than 8 shots from one view does not make it an illegal stage.

Funny thing is the guy on my squad that complained about it, got away with 6 procedurals due to a foot fault on a previous stage, I guess when an R.O. overlooks rules that benefitted him, it was ok, but he thought this was an illegal stage and complained to complain about i guess.

it was a great end of the year match, $50 level II and they gave away 2 guns (Sig 365's), plus lunch and iced water on the stages.

No I was not there,

I could only go by the OP's description, he described a stage that with the swinger at rest, required 9 shots through the port. If as you say there was another location any of the targets the OP said needed to be shot through the port could be engaged with the swinger at rest then I would agree totally legal. 

 

 

 

[bret]

11 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

No I was not there,

I could only go by the OP's description, he described a stage that with the swinger at rest, required 9 shots through the port. If as you say there was another location any of the targets the OP said needed to be shot through the port could be engaged with the swinger at rest then I would agree totally legal. 

 

 

 

show me where a swinger has to be at rest as part of the 8 shots per view.

Only 1 steel (activator) and 2 static targets Had to be engaged from the port, so 5 shots were required from the port, everything else had multiple views.

Since the swinger is moving during the stage, it is available from 3 or even 4 locations.

This would be a good question for NROI to clarify.

[MikeBurgess]

Just now, bret said:

show me where a swinger has to be at rest as part of the 8 shots per view.

Only 1 steel (activator) and 2 static targets Had to be engaged from the port, so 5 shots were required from the port, everything else had multiple views.

Since the swinger is moving during the stage, it is available from 3 or even 4 locations.

This would be a good question for NROI to clarify.

that argument is the same as saying a swinger (or other moving target) is not a disappearing target because it doesn't stop moving during a normal stage run time. 

[broadside72]

2 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

Illegal stage due to too many rounds from the port. Moving target position is ultimately represented by it's "Resting" position. It doesn't matter how long or short the duration of the movement is.

 

I agree with this but NROI clarification would be welcome

[IVC]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

that argument is the same as saying a swinger (or other moving target) is not a disappearing target because it doesn't stop moving during a normal stage run time.

Disappearing targets are covered explicitly in rule 9.9.2: "Moving scoring targets, which do not comply with the above criteria are considered disappearing targets and will not incur failure to shoot at or miss penalties except where Rule 9.9.3 applies." The "above criteria" refers to rule 9.9.1 which talks about how much of the A zone must be exposed, etc.

 

There is no rule for moving targets that would imply their availability is defined by their rest position. Maybe there should be one, but there isn't one at the moment. (At least I haven't found it.)

[CHA-LEE]

10 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

I agree with this but NROI clarification would be welcome

 

Have you sent NROI an e-mail asking for a clarification? Or do you expect them to be proactively monitoring every crazy rule question thread possible in the vastness of the interwebz?

[broadside72]

12 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

Have you sent NROI an e-mail asking for a clarification? Or do you expect them to be proactively monitoring every crazy rule question thread possible in the vastness of the interwebz?

 

I have not but at least one other has asked for clarification as well in this thread. Bug them about it.

[motosapiens]

meh. I haven't seen the stage in question, but it is possible that one of the targets could be seen through the port from some other position or view, and that would pretty much make the whole argument go away.

 

Often the *best* way to shoot something takes more than 8 rounds from a single position, even if it's not required.

[bret]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

meh. I haven't seen the stage in question, but it is possible that one of the targets could be seen through the port from some other position or view, and that would pretty much make the whole argument go away.

 

Often the *best* way to shoot something takes more than 8 rounds from a single position, even if it's not required.

The only targets not available from anywhere else were 1 popper that activated the swinger, and 2 static targets.

Only 5 shots had to be taken from the port.

There were a total of 14 available shots from that port, only 5 had to be taken there.

The double swinger could be seen and shot at from the port and 3 other places.

 

[IVC]

3 hours ago, bret said:

One girl on my squad shot the activator, the static 2 targets and 1 target on the swinger and then shot the 2nd target on the swinger from her 2nd position.

This pretty much settles the argument as far as the rule 1.2.1 goes - "...must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view..." If a person shot the swinger from another location, it was not required from the port. QED. 

 

The only way to make the stage illegal is to use rule other than 1.2.1. I'm not sure there is such a rule...

Edited January 2, 2020 by IVC

[Schutzenmeister]

Is everyone ignoring the part of the rule that states "... nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view."?

[bret]

6 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Is everyone ignoring the part of the rule that states "... nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view."?

That stage required 4 views for 30 shots.

[Schutzenmeister]

1 hour ago, bret said:

That stage required 4 views for 30 shots.

Sorry ... Wasn't the impression I had from the OP.