18-07 Reload penalty scenario

[JohnStewart]

We held a match today with classifier 18-07 (Someone Is Always Willing To Pay).  

 

The classifier is an 8 round, 40 point Comstock Speed Shoot.  It has 3 cardboard and 2 popper targets. 

The Stage Procedure says: From within box engage T1-3 or P1-2 then perform a mandatory reload and engage remaining targets.

 

One shooter started by landing 2 hits on 1 cardboard target, then took both the poppers.  He then performed a reload and then took the remaining 2 cardboard targets to finish his run.

 

He started with the cardboard but didn't finish them before moving to steel.  He also didn't perform a reload when transitioning from cardboard to steel (but as stated he did perform a reload after the steel before taking the remaining cardboard targets).  I, and the other 3 RO's I asked, were all unsure of exactly how many penalties should be applied here. 

 

Do you apply 1 under 10.2.2 for simply not following the WSB?

 

Do you apply 2, under 10.2.4, for the 2 shots taken after engaging the cardboard (irregardless of the fact that the shooter didn't engage all 3 cardboard targets) before performing the mandatory reload?  In other words considering the transition from cardboard to steel as requiring a reload, and 2 shots were taken before that reload was performed.

 

Or something else??  (We had other suggestions of 4 and 6 as well). 

How many penalties should he get and why (please cite rule numbers for your reasoning).

 

 

Rule references:

10.2.2 says: A competitor who fails to comply with the procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required position or stance).

 

10.2.4 says: A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

 

Thanks in advance for your insights!  Since this is a classifier, I'm wanting to make a determination and adjust the penalties (if needed) before submitting the classifier to USPSA.

[DKorn]

Normally this would be a great one to send to DNROI to get clarification on, but I have a feeling that he (and most of the RMIs) are probably busy with Nationals. Maybe email your local RMI, if he isn’t at Nationals. I’m curious to see what people think on this one. 

 

Personally, I would lean towards 2 penalties per 10.2.4.

 

What was the justification given for more than 2 procedurals, and what rule(s) we’re cited? I can’t come up with a reason for more than 2. 

[Bench]

I'd go with 2 per 10.2.2. The shooter incorrectly shot the course per WSB on the first cardboard( 1 penalty). After that the targets were engaged properly less the first cardboard which is the second occurrence (1 penalty). In actuality the shooter should have reengaged the first target following reload to complete all cardboard in the prescribed manner since it was Comstock. Sounds to me like a "brain fart" on the part of the shooter who finally got on the right track (no rule citation for that one ).

[DKorn]

4 minutes ago, Bench said:

I'd go with 2 per 10.2.2. The shooter incorrectly shot the course per WSB on the first cardboard( 1 penalty). After that the targets were engaged properly less the first cardboard which is the second occurrence (1 penalty). In actuality the shooter should have reengaged the first target following reload to complete all cardboard in the prescribed manner since it was Comstock. Sounds to me like a "brain fart" on the part of the shooter who finally got on the right track (no rule citation for that one ).

 

10.2.2.1 says that you can’t penalize someone for insufficient (or too many) shots fired under 10.2.2. To me this means you can’t penalize the shooter for not engaging the first paper again after the reload, or at least not under 10.2.2.

 

Also, engaging the first paper by itself isn’t in violation of the stage procedure because you could legally engage the paper first - it’s shooting at the steel without the mandatory reload that creates the violation. 

 

 

If you shot the first paper, then did the reload and shot the steel, and then stopped, what penalties would you get?

 

What if you did 1 paper, reload, everything else?

[WaJim]

Apply 2, under 10.2.4, for the 2 shots taken after engaging the cardboard (irregardless of the fact that the shooter didn't engage all 3 cardboard targets) before performing the mandatory reload?  In other words considering the transition from cardboard to steel as requiring a reload, and 2 shots were taken before that reload was performed.

 

The infraction happened when he didnt swap after paper and engaged two steel.

 

1 procedural Per shot fired. 

 

He swapped after steel to engage the paper....although it was remaining paper so he fufilled the WSB mandatory mag swap.

 

 

 

 

So think of it like this....Say the shooter engaged the steel first then swapped mag, engaged paper, saw he missed a popper and reengaged steel.....before re-engaging he'd have to do another reload or get a procedural per shot, (except it wouldn't be per-shot if it took 2 or 3 to hit the one steel.)

[Bench]

11 minutes ago, WaJim said:

Apply 2, under 10.2.4, for the 2 shots taken after engaging the cardboard (irregardless of the fact that the shooter didn't engage all 3 cardboard targets) before performing the mandatory reload?  In other words considering the transition from cardboard to steel as requiring a reload, and 2 shots were taken before that reload was performed.

 

The infraction happened when he didnt swap after paper and engaged two steel.

 

1 procedural Per shot fired. 

 

He swapped after steel to engage the paper....although it was remaining paper so he fufilled the WSB mandatory mag swap.

 

 

 

 

So think of it like this....Say the shooter engaged the steel first then swapped mag, engaged paper, saw he missed a popper and reengaged steel.....before re-engaging he'd have to do another reload or get a procedural per shot, (except it wouldn't be per-shot if it took 2 or 3 to hit the one steel.)

That sounds like  a good application of the rule 10.2.4 and  my call for a second penalty may just be "double jeopardy" so my question comes when considering the application of 10.2.4 vs. 10.2.2. There clearly is a violation of 10.2.2. Why choose one rule over the other? Is it the consideration of which rule will hold up the best during arbitration?

[DKorn]

1 hour ago, WaJim said:

So think of it like this....Say the shooter engaged the steel first then swapped mag, engaged paper, saw he missed a popper and reengaged steel.....before re-engaging he'd have to do another reload or get a procedural per shot, (except it wouldn't be per-shot if it took 2 or 3 to hit the one steel.)

 

Where in the WSB does it say that a second mandatory reload is required before reengaging whichever targets (paper or steel) you engaged first? It only says that you must reload after engaging the first set of targets and before engaging the second array.

 

If you engaged steel, reloaded and engaged paper, then saw a steel still standing and shot at it again, I would not give you any procedurals. Same thing if you shot the paper, reloaded, shot the steel, and then fired a makeup on the paper. 

[nasty618]

24 minutes ago, Bench said:

Say the shooter engaged the steel first then swapped mag, engaged paper, saw he missed a popper and reengaged steel.....before re-engaging he'd have to do another reload or get a procedural per shot

 

Perhaps i am missing something, but I dont think that scenario and procedure/penalties make sense as an example to the original situation... WSB says "engage targets" not "until targets are hit" or "targets are down".  In this scenario, did he perform mandatory reload after engaging steel? Yes. That's it.  Stage procedure requirements were met and WSB says nothing about re-enaging target arrays and reloads in between.

 

For the OP scenario, my thinking and the call would be (admittedly, i would take some time to think on this one...) as follows: shooter elected to engage T1-3 as his first array.  Therefore, the point at which the required procedural steps (mandatory reload) would have to be taken is before engaging the P1-2 array.  The fact that he didnt engage all paper targets  is not relevant, but the array being engaged as per WSB procedure is.  He did not perform the reload at that point, so 10.2.4 applies, 1 procedural per shot fired, 2 total. 

 

This is an interesting scenario and I am looking forward to the final clarifications on this and further learning in case my call is incorrect.

[DKorn]

3 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

 

Perhaps i am missing something, but I dont think that scenario and procedure/penalties make sense as an example to the original situation... WSB says "engage targets" not "until targets are hit" or "targets are down".  In this scenario, did he perform mandatory reload after engaging steel? Yes. That's it.  Stage procedure requirements were met and WSB says nothing about re-enaging target arrays and reloads in between.

 

For the OP scenario, my thinking and the call would be (admittedly, i would take some time to think on this one...) as follows: shooter elected to engage T1-3 as his first array.  Therefore, the point at which the required procedural steps (mandatory reload) would have to be taken is before engaging the P1-2 array.  The fact that he didnt engage all paper targets  is not relevant, but the array being engaged as per WSB procedure is.  He did not perform the reload at that point, so 10.2.4 applies, 1 procedural per shot fired, 2 total. 

 

This is an interesting scenario and I am looking forward to the final clarifications on this and further learning in case my call is incorrect.

 

This is the clearest description of my reasoning as well. 

[JohnStewart]

15 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

For the OP scenario, my thinking and the call would be (admittedly, i would take some time to think on this one...) as follows: shooter elected to engage T1-3 as his first array.  Therefore, the point at which the required procedural steps (mandatory reload) would have to be taken is before engaging the P1-2 array.  The fact that he didnt engage all paper targets  is not relevant, but the array being engaged as per WSB procedure is.  He did not perform the reload at that point, so 10.2.4 applies, 1 procedural per shot fired, 2 total. 

 

This is an interesting scenario and I am looking forward to the final clarifications on this and further learning in case my call is incorrect.

 

This makes the most sense to me as well.  I emailed the scenario to the DNROI alias yesterday, understanding they are likely pretty focused on Nationals right now.  I'll be sure to post a follow up as I hear back from them.

[broadside72]

 
This is the clearest description of my reasoning as well. 

I agree as well.

[WaJim]

52 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

 

Perhaps i am missing something, but I dont think that scenario and procedure/penalties make sense as an example to the original situation... WSB says "engage targets" not "until targets are hit" or "targets are down".  In this scenario, did he perform mandatory reload after engaging steel? Yes. That's it.  Stage procedure requirements were met and WSB says nothing about re-enaging target arrays and reloads in between.

 

Good question.

 

I would point out that the WSB says reload between arrays...

 

The Arrays being either the paper or steel.

 

 

And you're right my example was a poor one.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by WaJim

[DKorn]

56 minutes ago, WaJim said:

 

Good question.

 

I would point out that the WSB says reload between arrays...

 

The Arrays being either the paper or steel.

 

No it doesn’t. The WSB says to engage one, reload, and then engage the other. It doesn’t say that you have to reload any time you switch arrays, although that would be interesting to put into a WSB. 

[waktasz]

2 procedurals for failing to do the mandatory reload before engaging the poppers.

 

After that point, the reload doesn't really help him. Should have just shot the whole stage with no reload REAL fast.

 

[DKorn]

2 minutes ago, waktasz said:

After that point, the reload doesn't really help him. Should have just shot the whole stage with no reload REAL fast.

 

 

If he hadn’t done the reload, wouldn’t he have continued to get per shot penalties up until he did the reload per 10.2.4?

[waktasz]

I haven't seen it applied like that on any of the other classifiers with required reloads. 

For example Melody Line.

How many times have you seen someone double tap the first target then go oops, and continue on correctly. 

Is the second shot considered part of the second pass that has to come after the mandatory reload? 

 

Am I doing it wrong?

[MikeBurgess]

25 minutes ago, waktasz said:

I haven't seen it applied like that on any of the other classifiers with required reloads. 

For example Melody Line.

How many times have you seen someone double tap the first target then go oops, and continue on correctly. 

Is the second shot considered part of the second pass that has to come after the mandatory reload? 

 

Am I doing it wrong?

I think in the case of melody line if they, as you described, shot the first target twice then finished as prescribed (shoot 7 reload shoot 6)they would get a extra shot penalty and likely a extra hit penalty, however if after the reload they did not shoot the target they shot at twice the first time (so shoot 7 reload shoot 5) they would get a stacking procedural, because no extra shots were fired.

 

in the OP's example the stage says shoot either array perform a mandatory reload and engage remaining targets, so they engaged the paper array did not reload fired 2 shots at the steel array earning 2 procedurals for failure to reload then continued after the reload to shoot the remaining targets without penalty. 

 

[Gary Stevens]

Send the shooter to remedial reading class.