Gun sleeve for carrying to safe table?

[Hkfisher]

I am new to USPSA and wanted to make sure I do not break any rule. Can I carry my gun from case to the safe table in a gun sock/sleeve? 

[Sarge]

It has to be closable with zipper, Velcro etc

5.2.1.1 To be considered bagged, the handgun must be in a case or bag that completely covers the firearm, and prevents access to the trigger, including having the zipper or fastener completely closed.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Sarge

[Hkfisher]

5 minutes ago, Sarge said:

It has to be closable with zipper, Velcro etc

5.2.1.1 To be considered bagged, the handgun must be in a case or bag that completely covers the firearm, and prevents access to the trigger, including having the zipper or fastener completely closed.

Thank you Sarge. Much appreciated. 

[broadside72]

You should mark the muzzle direction on the bag or have some other reference point. Muzzling rule applies at the safe table!

 

I use the locking end as the muzzle end. Gun always goes in the same way.

[Hkfisher]

13 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

You should mark the muzzle direction on the bag or have some other reference point. Muzzling rule applies at the safe table!

 

I use the locking end as the muzzle end. Gun always goes in the same way.

Great tip! I will be using that method. 

[waktasz]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

You should mark the muzzle direction on the bag or have some other reference point. Muzzling rule applies at the safe table!

 

 

 

Does it?

[broadside72]

 
Does it?

USPSA 2.4.1

[waktasz]

Which references 10.5.1 and 10.5.12.

[Sarge]

3 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Which references 10.5.1 and 10.5.12.

And, 10.5.12 references 2.4.1 so it seems to go back to gun must point in safe direction or DQ. This could probably be interpreted many ways but I see a possible path to a DQ by opening a gun case and the gun is pointed right back at you. It would be uncased since the trigger would be exposed. But I must admit, even a hard ass rules NAZI like me, would have a hard time reaching that far. Picking it up after uncased and pointing it in an unsafe direction is a major difference

[broadside72]

"or failing to comply with 2.4.1"

[waktasz]

I was mostly referring to the sweeping rule. Go to safe table and use a bushing wrench on your 1911. DQ for sweeping? No, it's not. 

[broadside72]

Muzzlng yourself or someone else is not a safe direction. But I won't call you for muzzling yourself but i will for doing it to someone else.

Once the gun is apart or otherwise non functional then it's ok

[Brooke]

Question: Competitor loads and reholsters firearm correctly at the Make Ready command.Then while awaiting the Start Signal the competitor holds his strong hand in a manner that places his fingers under the muzzle. Is that sweeping in a DQ manner?

 

The holster rule for a loaded firearm only excepts the lower extremities during holstering or drawing. I don't think the fingers are lower extremities  So if you place you hand with curled fingers under the muzzle is that technically a DQ? Seems to me it is. Wish it were not.

[broadside72]

A holstered firearm is considered inert, loaded or not. Is it smart? Debatable. Is it legal? Yes

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, Brooke said:

Question: Competitor loads and reholsters firearm correctly at the Make Ready command.Then while awaiting the Start Signal the competitor holds his strong hand in a manner that places his fingers under the muzzle. Is that sweeping in a DQ manner?

 

The holster rule for a loaded firearm only excepts the lower extremities during holstering or drawing. I don't think the fingers are lower extremities  So if you place you hand with curled fingers under the muzzle is that technically a DQ? Seems to me it is. Wish it were not.

 

4 hours ago, Brooke said:

Question: Competitor loads and reholsters firearm correctly at the Make Ready command.Then while awaiting the Start Signal the competitor holds his strong hand in a manner that places his fingers under the muzzle. Is that sweeping in a DQ manner?

 

The holster rule for a loaded firearm only excepts the lower extremities during holstering or drawing. I don't think the fingers are lower extremities  So if you place you hand with curled fingers under the muzzle is that technically a DQ? Seems to me it is. Wish it were not.

So you quoted the rule without reading all of it? Read ALL of 10.5.5.1

edited to add the obligatory smiley face.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Sarge

[bret]

12 hours ago, Brooke said:

Question: Competitor loads and reholsters firearm correctly at the Make Ready command.Then while awaiting the Start Signal the competitor holds his strong hand in a manner that places his fingers under the muzzle. Is that sweeping in a DQ manner?

 

The holster rule for a loaded firearm only excepts the lower extremities during holstering or drawing. I don't think the fingers are lower extremities  So if you place you hand with curled fingers under the muzzle is that technically a DQ? Seems to me it is. Wish it were not.

No access to the trigger on a holstered gun, so you can't sweep yourself. 

[Brooke]

Let me try again: I'm not making a point. I am asking a question. Neither of the above answers apply to the situation.

So....

After "Make Ready", handgun is loaded and holstered.

 

The competitor while waiting for the "start signal" in a hands below waist style start,  partially closes his hand (fingers pointed at leg). This puts his fingers under the muzzle of the holstered and loaded gun.

 

Sarge's answer applies to lower extremities (not hands/fingers) or to unloaded guns in 5.2.1 and 5.2.7. This gun is loaded and we are talking about fingers not legs.

 

Brets answer relates to 5.2 which talks about unloaded guns.

 

I don't think any rule I can find applies to all of the following....hands/fingers...loaded guns in holsters...fingers under the muzzle of that gun

 

I don't want this to be a DQ but if someone does it and gets DQed and I'm on the arbitration committee, what do I say to find in the competitors favor? It is a  loaded gun properly holstered with the trigger covered but fingers are not lower extremities.

[GrumpyOne]

3 hours ago, Brooke said:

Let me try again: I'm not making a point. I am asking a question. Neither of the above answers apply to the situation.

So....

After "Make Ready", handgun is loaded and holstered.

 

The competitor while waiting for the "start signal" in a hands below waist style start,  partially closes his hand (fingers pointed at leg). This puts his fingers under the muzzle of the holstered and loaded gun.

 

Sarge's answer applies to lower extremities (not hands/fingers) or to unloaded guns in 5.2.1 and 5.2.7. This gun is loaded and we are talking about fingers not legs.

 

Brets answer relates to 5.2 which talks about unloaded guns.

 

I don't think any rule I can find applies to all of the following....hands/fingers...loaded guns in holsters...fingers under the muzzle of that gun

 

I don't want this to be a DQ but if someone does it and gets DQed and I'm on the arbitration committee, what do I say to find in the competitors favor? It is a  loaded gun properly holstered with the trigger covered but fingers are not lower extremities.

Read this.

 

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping 
of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-
holstering a handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are 
clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for 
holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun 
holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7.

 

The way I read it, sweeping does not apply if the handgun is holstered in a correct type holster. The exception is for the draw of the handgun and for the lower extremities. If the handgun is in the holster, loaded or unloaded, sweeping does not apply.

 

You are reading too much into it. 

[Sarge]

12 hours ago, GrumpyOne said:

Read this.

 

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping 
of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-
holstering a handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are 
clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for 
holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun 
holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7.

 

The way I read it, sweeping does not apply if the handgun is holstered in a correct type holster. The exception is for the draw of the handgun and for the lower extremities. If the handgun is in the holster, loaded or unloaded, sweeping does not apply.

 

You are reading too much into it. 

Exactly. If you run enough shooters and pay attention you will see shooters do this at nearly every match.

[Brooke]

9 hours ago, Sarge said:

Exactly. If you run enough shooters and pay attention you will see shooters do this at nearly every match.

 

That's my point Sarge. I am neither a beginner or an unskilled rules person.

 

The rules quoted above apply to only unloaded guns (5.2.1) or holster design (5.2.7) or to lower extremities during drawing and reholstering (10.5.5).

 

I totally agree that fingers under the muzzle happens often between Make Ready and the Start Signal. It is not called and should not be called but darn it it is not specifically acceptable under the rules. If it should get called and I am on the arb committee I find no use of the suggested rules. They do not apply. 

[Sarge]

On 8/25/2019 at 6:15 AM, GrumpyOne said:

4 hours ago, Brooke said:

 

That's my point Sarge. I am neither a beginner or an unskilled rules person.

 

The rules quoted above apply to only unloaded guns (5.2.1) or holster design (5.2.7) or to lower extremities during drawing and reholstering (10.5.5).

 

I totally agree that fingers under the muzzle happens often between Make Ready and the Start Signal. It is not called and should not be called but darn it it is not specifically acceptable under the rules. If it should get called and I am on the arb committee I find no use of the suggested rules. They do not apply. 

Read this.

 

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping 
of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-
holstering a handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are 
clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for 
holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun 
holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7.

 

The way I read it, sweeping does not apply if the handgun is holstered in a correct type holster. The exception is for the draw of the handgun and for the lower extremities. If the handgun is in the holster, loaded or unloaded, sweeping does not apply.

 

You are reading too much into it. 

Exactly. If you run enough shooters and pay attention you will see shooters do this at nearly every match.

[GrumpyOne]

3 hours ago, Brooke said:

 

That's my point Sarge. I am neither a beginner or an unskilled rules person.

 

The rules quoted above apply to only unloaded guns (5.2.1) or holster design (5.2.7) or to lower extremities during drawing and reholstering (10.5.5).

 

I totally agree that fingers under the muzzle happens often between Make Ready and the Start Signal. It is not called and should not be called but darn it it is not specifically acceptable under the rules. If it should get called and I am on the arb committee I find no use of the suggested rules. They do not apply. 

Brooke, break 10.5.5.1 down into individual sentences. The sentences that absolutely, 100% clears any question is this: 

Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7.

 

You cannot sweep yourself with a holstered gun. Sweeping only applies to an un-holstered gun, which 10.5.5.1 covers explicitly.

[Sarge]

Ok. From the glossary:

Sweeping
Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person’s body, while holding it in the hands, or placing it on or removing it from an object. There may be an exception for RO interference.

[GrumpyOne]

11 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Ok. From the glossary:

Sweeping
Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person’s body, while holding it in the hands, or placing it on or removing it from an object. There may be an exception for RO interference.

That pretty much sums it up. I don't see any reference to sweeping if it is in a holster...You have to be manipulating the gun itself to fit that glossary definition. 

[motosapiens]

6 hours ago, Brooke said:

 

I totally agree that fingers under the muzzle happens often between Make Ready and the Start Signal. It is not called and should not be called but darn it it is not specifically acceptable under the rules. If it should get called and I am on the arb committee I find no use of the suggested rules. They do not apply. 

 

actually, fingers under the muzzle *is* specifically acceptable under the rules (thoughtfully posted by grumpyone above).