subsonic .22lr & bolt cycling

[jerryz]

I stumbled on some info that I thought would be helpful, that I wanted to pass on.  I did not see similar info posted anywhere on Brian Enos forums. I wasn't sure exactly what forum to post this, since it covers bolts and ammo, and suppressors, but ...

 

I have a couple of Ruger 10/22's, both suppressed.  I have been playing around with a bunch of different subsonic ammo.  The cheapest and easiest to get (at least for me) is CCI Quiet.  It is "as seem in the movies" quiet.  But, it won't cycle the bolt.  Then I found that Volquarten makes a FireFly bolt that is designed to work with the CCI Quiet ammo.  Today, it runs about $200.  It works like a champ -- as good as advertised.  Volquartsen  rep emailed me that they do not recommend standard velocity with their bolt.  

 

After I bought a pair of FireFlys, I stumbled on Norma Tac-22 ammo.  It is also subsonic, and it will cycle the bolt of the standard 10/22. 

 

The Norma runs about 1100fps while the CCI is only 700fps.  The Norma is more flat shooting.  Currently, Midway sells both.  Norma $50/500 and CCI $35/500

 

I also tried both on a Glock 17 fitted with a Tactical Solutions TSG-22, .22lr conversion.  Again, the CCI would not cycle it while the Norma worked fine.

 

Sorry for a sort of rambling post, but, here's the bottom line:

If you want to shoot suppressed .22lr:

- CCI Quiets are the quietest and cheapest but won't cycle.

- Volquartsen Firefly works great with the CCI quiet, but, not recommended with standard velocity and it's $200

- Norma Tac-22 is subsonic, shoots a bit better, just a bit louder than CCI, and is $15/500 more money, but, it will cycle the bolt on 10/22 and Tac Sol .22 Glock conversions.

 

So, that's what I learned with about $600 and a bit of screwing around.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Great post, Jerry, thanks for sharing.    

 

Are there any other alternatives for subsonic .22 ammo ?

 

Do you see a large difference in the sound if you go supersonic ?

[jerryz]

When you look at a .22 bullet, you'd figure "how much crack could this little thing have?" but it's pretty amazing.  

 

One day I heard my neighbor shooting what sounded like a 22.  He lives 1/2 mile away.  I called him and asked what he was shooting and he said he just got a new can for his 10/22 and was super disappointed because it was so loud.  We experimented with different ammo and discovered that it was the SS crack that I could hear in my yard.  Now, I'm not saying it was loud enough to wake the baby from a nap, but, I could hear and recognize gunshots 1/2 mile away.  But with the subsonic ammo, all you could hear was the bolt, even  when standing next to the gun.

 

Here is some info I gathered just tinkering around.  I have two Ruger 10/22's - one with a Mist barrel from Gemtech and one with a regular barrel and a Tango suppressor.  You can see that the Mist barrel is much slower,  but then it's almost difficult to get it to shoot super sonic.  Also below is a temp chart.

 

Of course, this is just me plinking around and not some kind of nationally recognized scientific study.

 

 

Temp: 75 degrees		Mist Barrel						10/22 16" BBL Tango
	Shot 1	Shot 2	Shot 3	Avg	SD		Shot 1	Shot 2	Shot 3	Avg	SD		Avg Dif
Gemtech	1000	969	968	979	18		1038	1006	1032	1025	17		46
Norma Tac22	970	986	975	977	8		1047	1043	1057	1049	7		72
Aquila Target	983	995	987	988	6		1097?	1075	1082	1085	11		97
Eley Subsonic	897	876	883	885	10		980	989	953	974	18		89
RWS Target	910	918	959	929	26		1001	1003	1043	1016	23		87
Aquila Super Extra	1023	1034	1031	1029	5		1101xx	1103xx	1077?	1098	14		69
CCI Quiet	621	658	630	636	19		682	695	707	698	12		62
Federal	1151xx	1147xx	1159xx	1152	6		1198xx	1203xx	1229xx	1210	16		58
xx =  supersonic crack
? = seemed very loud but maybe not supersonic
Temperature F	Speed of sound FPS
0	1050
10	1062
20	1073
30	1084
40	1095
50	1106
60	1117
70	1127
80	1138
90	1149
100	1159

https://www.weather.gov/epz/wxcalc_speedofsound

 

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

My only experience with suppressors is shooting a Ruger .22 pistol - guy had one at the

range, and he let me shoot a mag thru it.

 

I took my earmuffs off and there was very little noise - a real pleasure to shoot.     

 

The only thing keeping me from buying a suppressed .22 is that I've heard they

need to be cleaned often, and they're not real simple to clean.

 

Maybe one day - "sounds" like a lot of fun - pun intended      

[Agent 214]

I have found that using "suppressor" or "subsonic" marketed ammo does not justify the extra costs associated with it.

I shoot using a Gemtech GM-22, AAC Element 2, and Dead Air Mask. 

 

While I will agree that CCI quiet is a SLIGHT bit quieter, it is not worth the money for a couple reasons.

1) It will not cycle semi autos

2) the velocity is to low to stabilize and give good groups out of longer barrels

 

i have found that CCI standard velocity at $23 a brick is more than quiet enough and extremely accurate out to 35 yards. it will shoot 10 round groups of one hole out of my Ruger PR.

For shooting critters I also tried CCI's segmented quiet and it also could not hold Minute Of Squirrel at 25 yards. 

 

Any standard velocity ammo and a good portion of "supersonic" ammo will stay subsonic in host weapons under 8". So by default, in a pistol, all ammo is subsonic. Most ratings achieved by Ammo makers is with a 16" barrel. Start hacking length and velocity goes down quick as well.

 

As far as .22 suppressors go, nothing should hold you back from getting one now a days. Back when they were sealed and made of aluminum I could see them being an issue, but not anymore. My recommendation would be find one that is made of at minimum stainless steel and can be taken apart. Cleaning is simple with the right chemicals. Also, i go about 1-2k rounds between cleanings with no ill effects. Cans like to be be dirty to give best suppression.

[Agent 214]

Jerryz, by chance is your mist one of the ones that is ported in the barrel section? Gemtech originally ported all their barrels in the Mist like HK ported the barrels in the MP5SD. At some point Gemtech stopped doing this and then by consumer demanded started again. The ports keep "all" ammo subsonic.

[jerryz]

You're right on barrel length and velocity.  That's why the Mist is more likely to be sub than my full length .22, although I did get the standard velocity Federals to crack.   The actual solid part of the barrel is only 9" but the whole thing is 16". 

 

Now you got me thinking I need to chrono that same bunch of ammo in a pistol and record the results.  

 

Not sure I understand the question about the Mist barrel.  I will post a pic of mine.  I got it a summer 2016.  The outside tube is solid, no ports.

 

Also, I learned a good lesson taking this apart for the photo: CLEAN THEM OFTEN and lube them before use.  OMG, outside tube was almost welded on.  I thought I lubed it like my other cans, but, I guess not.  I use liberal amounts of Permatex Ceramic Extreme Brake Parts Lube (it's a high temp lube).  The solid part of the baffle stack was stuck to the outside tube.  I can even see lead stuck to the inside of the tube.  FYI, a 12ga bronze brush works perfectly to clean the tube.  And then I put Permatex Aluminum Anti Seize lube on the threaded parts. Messy as hell, but, I have easily unscrewed my other cans with no problem.  

[jerryz]

Update:  I tried the ammo on a Glock17 with a Tactical Solutions .22lr conversion, and, my Mack Bros Tango suppressor.  As Agent 214 correctly noted, all ammo was subsonic.  The Norma and Federal both cycled the slide, while the others usually did not.  So, in a pistol, you might as well save the money on the exotic ammo since the standard velocity (aka cheap) stuff is both subsonic and will cycle.

 

I did not have all the brands of ammo to try.

 

		G17 w/Tac Sol .22 conversion & Tango
		Shot 1	Shot 2	Shot 3	Avg	SD
Gemtech
Norma Tac22		892	888	897	892	4
Aquila Target
Eley Subsonic		832	856	881	857	34
RWS Target
Aquila Super Extra
CCI Quiet		639	656	624	640	16
Federal		1046	1059	1077	1060	15

[Hi-Power Jack]

2 hours ago, jerryz said:

All ammo was subsonic …

 

		G17 w/Tac Sol .22 conversion & Tango
		Shot 1	Shot 2	Shot 3	Avg	SD
Federal		1046	1059	1077	1060	15

 

Looks like the Federal came close, though.     

[Pizzim]

its possible the federal was still rather under supersonic as the ambient air temps effect the speed of sound

 

i use CCI standard. It stays subsonic in everything I have tested it in Florida. It’s fairly priced and accurate enough for what I need it to do.

[M1A4ME]

My dad (and his dad) always squirrel hunted with .22 shorts.  Head shots, no messing up the meat that was intended for supper that day, or breakfast the next morning.

 

Dad told me that sometimes, if he missed, the squirrel would stop chewing on the nut, look around, then go back to chewing on the nut and he'd get it his second shot (I don't think dad missed much).  He said it was because the .22 shorts were so quiet they just didn't sound like a rifle shot, even a standard .22 long rifle.

 

They hunted with bolt action and pump .22 rifles.  But, Remington (and probably other companies as well) used to make semi-auto .22's specifically for .22 shorts.  I almost bought a Remington 241 many years ago (just missed it at a pawn shop).  The Rem. 241 was a copy of the little Browning take down .22 that loads through stock.

 

If someone could design/build/sell a working .22 short firing  semi-auto 70 or 80 years ago, it could be done now, either by a tinkerer who likes working on his guns or by a shop that does custom work.

 

Anyone who says .22 shorts won't kill should see the pictures of the piles of squirrels dad used to bring home when we lived in MI.  They might not be "100 yd. killers" but inside reasonable small game head shooting ranges they get the job done.

 

Having said all that, I've not seen a box of .22 shorts for sale in a store in 30 years or more.

[Hi-Power Jack]

On my farm in NY, I've shot a number of the "new crop of woodchucks"

with a .22 short out of my Ruger Single Action revolver - worked very well  

[BallisticianX]

RWS HP Subsonics, a bit pricey but the most accurate subsonics I've tried and very quiet. But they are on the edge of cycling an OEM 10/22 bolt and spring. I found the cheaper effective fix to adjust the cycling for subsonic ammo is the KIDD recoil spring kit. It comes with 3 springs; a standard (close to OEM power), a 10% lighter, and 10% heavier and a guide rod for $9.95. The Kidd aluminum bolt handles are $20.  The medium spring is slightly less powered than the Ruger OEM spring and with the KIDD aluminum bolt handle works reliably with my OEM bolt to cycle subsonics both unsuppressed or suppressed (got to try it suppressed in TN thanks to my cousin owning one). The 10% lighter spring will definitely work for all subs with OEM bolt un-suppressed or suppressed.  So for $30 your good to go. I will mention the Kidd springs will work with the Ruger OEM bolt handle/rod but you'll need to un-stake the guide rod to change but you'll be sacrificing the reciprocating mass savings with the OEM steel handle vs aluminum Kidd one. .  

[Absocold]

.22 CB's out of a lever or bolt action rifles is as quiet as it gets. The hammer striking the firing pin and a slight whoosh from the projectile is all you hear. No can required.

 

I have a Liberty Regulator for use on my 22 autos. From a pistol I use normal velocity (CCI Standard, Winchester white box) as the short barrel prevents it from reaching supersonic velocities. From the rifle I use CCI Supressor, it's much faster than CCI Quiet but still subsonic. These combos are louder than a spring piston air gun but quieter than a pump air gun.

[AZGUNNER]

I wouldn't waste money on new bolt for a 1022. Just put some time and energy into what Ruger doesn't. Fit and finish. Dremel couple of stones maybe a 6 inch grinder with polishing wheels and compound I bet if you racked the slide on my 1022's or 22 pistols you would never believe they are all stock components.  And they will cycle everything north of cb longs.

[Flatland Shooter]

5 hours ago, AZGUNNER said:

I wouldn't waste money on new bolt for a 1022. Just put some time and energy into what Ruger doesn't. Fit and finish. Dremel couple of stones maybe a 6 inch grinder with polishing wheels and compound I bet if you racked the slide on my 1022's or 22 pistols you would never believe they are all stock components.  And they will cycle everything north of cb longs.

 

What areas of the 10/22 bolt do you polish?  Any polishing done on interior of the receiver?

Thanks.

[BallisticianX]

11 hours ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

What areas of the 10/22 bolt do you polish?  Any polishing done on interior of the receiver?

Thanks.

I dont recommend polishing the interior of the action, at most just lightly running and Arkansas stone across it breifly is all youll want to do. Its anodized aluminum and you dont want to cut through the anodizing exposing the softer bare aluminum as this will accelerate wear. AZGUNNER is right about focusing on the bolt. I cant say what he addresses but Im sure he is referring to; polishing the bearing surfaces where it rides in the receiver (this not only reduces drag but it will also reduce the anodizing being worn down from the bolts reciprocation). Round/radius the bottom rear of the bolt where it interacts with the hammer as that will greatly reduce the drag when the bolt cycles and resets the hammer (wont stunt the rearward movement as much). Carefully polish the bolt face to remove rough spots so the round smoothly slides under the extractor without dragging (be careful not to remove metal here as it could compromise headspacing, just smooth it up). 

[Flatland Shooter]

Thank you.