Blitzkrieg Buffer ????

[JAFO]

8 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

Do you guys think hyd buffers have any effect on dot movement when the gun goes into battery?

 

 

I wouldn't think so, since the spring seats on the head of the buffer and not the body.  The hydraulics would only be absorbing energy from the mass of the buffer body.

[L9X25]

1 hour ago, MikieM said:

In the larger sense I would agree with you. Recoil is dissipated on those larger guns, much like the shocks on a car. They operate in both directions. Our smaller versions, I believe, do not.  

 

11 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

Do you guys think hyd buffers have any effect on dot movement when the gun goes into battery?

 

 

The way that they work, and how they help with the "dot dip" from the bolt slamming shut, is that they absorb bolt/buffer energy and dissipate it without giving it back.  A spring absorbs energy and then returns all of it back.  With a hydraulic buffer tuned and working properly, the bolt is closed with less energy than the recoil energy that opened it.  As Mikie said, it does not dampen the forward movement hydraulically, but it reduces the energy stored in the spring to return the bolt closed.   

[MikieM]

36 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

Do you guys think hyd buffers have any effect on dot movement when the gun goes into battery?

 

 

If you mean by reducing dot movement, no I don't.

[L9X25]

Mikie,

 

If you have a well tuned and sprung gun, it absorbs basically all of the energy in the spring without giving you an excessive "bump" at the end of the travel.  Then it returns the same amount of energy to close the bolt.   If we reduce the recoil spring weight by 50%, half of the energy is sent into your shoulder in the form a solid "bump" and the bolt/buffer are closed with only half of the energy of the recoil.  While this is an exaggerated example, it illustrates how energy can be taken out of the equation to where the bolt slams shut with less energy, causing less "dot dip" as a result of the bolt closing.  

 

 

[Startingover]

My blitzkrieg should arrive today

Always fun watching tracking.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Startingover

[L9X25]

1 hour ago, Startingover said:

My blitzkrieg should arrive today

Always fun watching tracking.

 I particularly love it when your item crosses the country in 2 days, then spend 2 days at your local hub waiting to find it's way upon a truck for delivery.

[TRUBL]

Here is the page on the miniature shock absorbers that I believe are used in the buffer.......pretty sure you can find which model is used. In looking, I found it interesting that the return time of the plunger is in time frame of .3 to 4 seconds.......and the recoil stroke is a lot faster than that I believe.

 

http://www.acecontrols.com/us/products/automation-control/miniature-shock-absorbers.html

[Patrick Scott]

Here is what I think, could be wrong. I think the hyd buffers slow only the first, what 1/2" of rear travel? After that they are going to stay compressed until the system reverses direction and then the will open back up and soften the last 1/2" of forward travel. What does that mean for dot movement? Im dont know yet. 

On the start of the rearward stroke the body mass wants to stay still as the bolt drives the head back, thus compressing the buffer.
On the start of the forward stroke the body mass wants to stay still as the buffer spring drives the head forward, thus opening the buffer. That said, I guess it could do "something" to the system when the buffer opens back up. 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Patrick Scott

[L9X25]

I think that the Hyd buffer does nothing until the bolt/buffer reach the end of the stroke.  Then, instead of the bolt/buffer solidly banging into the bottom of the buffer tube, the Hyd buffer helps to absorb whatever energy is remaining and softens the impact.  Then it does nothing on the return stroke beyond expanding to it's full length and equalizing for the next shot.  

 

If the buffer spring is too heavy, and the buffer does not bottom out, the hydraulic buffer does absolutely nothing.  Taccom's buffer is similar to the extent that it does nothing except at the end of the stroke, if there is any energy remaining.  The main difference is that Taccom uses a spring and the Blitzkrieg uses a hydraulic shock to perform a similar function. 

I am not saying that one method is better than another, just that they both only work at the very end of the stroke, when the buffer bottoms out on the end of the tube.  If either of them do not bottom out, they do nothing more than provide buffer weight.  

[MikieM]

Remember, the rapid movement of the bolt/buffer rearward is followed by a sudden stop. Soon after that the movement of the bolt/buffer forward is followed by another sudden stop. All this happens so quickly that our senses perceive these actions as one singular event.

 

Since energy can neither be created, or destroyed, all of the so called recoil systems work in only one direction. That is, when the bolt/buffer travels toward the rear. Nothing, that I know of, mitigates the return of the bolt/buffer to battery. Having said that, a weaker buffer spring will lesson the forward momentum of the bolt/buffer, but that can create its own problems. Slower cycle rate, etc.

I still maintain that the bolt, coupled with the proper weight buffer, and held in by the correct spring is the best way to go.

 

And don't forget. Opinions are like rear ends. Everybody's got one. 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by MikieM

[Flatland Shooter]

3 hours ago, TRUBL said:

Here is the page on the miniature shock absorbers ...........................In looking, I found it interesting that the return time of the plunger is in time frame of .3 to 4 seconds.......and the recoil stroke is a lot faster than that I believe.

 

I pulled my Blitzkrieg buffer and manipulated it by hand.  I think its reset from compressed to open may be faster than 0.3 seconds but its definitely not fast enough to fully expand on fast splits.

 

To me this means the buffer will have an effect on just the first shot and you're back to the spring and a 6.2 ounce buffer for each fast followup shot.  Also it feels like the amount of effort required to close the buffer is much smaller than the amount of effort needed to collapse the buffer spring.  If so, then it would lend support to Partick's theory that the  hyd buffer slows the bolt movement in  only the first 1/2" of rear travel.

 

I guess its possible at the speed the bolt cycles the forces on the hyd buffer is much different than what I was doing by hand.  If so, I think its possible that fully compressing the hyd buffer is a bit slower and instead of closing in the first 1/2" of movement it actually closes over the full movement of the bolt/buffer.  If correct, the strength of the buffer spring and its selection becomes much more critical.

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Flatland Shooter

[L9X25]

I guess someone is going to have to put a camera in there and see what it is actually doing before we can have a definitive answer.

 

What I can say is that my bill drill groups were cut in half when going from a well tuned JP SCS with the spring and weights optimized, then going to the Blitzkrieg. 

I went back and forth to make sure it was not a fluke and it remained consistent.  I test everything that goes into my gun, just because it works for someone else does not

mean that it will work in my application.  This buffer works in my application.  YMMV.

[L9X25]

For those better at math than me, the Blitz buffer weighs about 5oz and the internal return spring weighs out at just over 5 lbs just before full compression with about 3 lbs of preload.  

I seriously doubt that the spring compresses much, if any, at the acceleration of the buffer towards the rear.  

[Aircooled6racer]

2 hours ago, L9X25 said:

I guess someone is going to have to put a camera in there and see what it is actually doing before we can have a definitive answer.

 

What I can say is that my bill drill groups were cut in half when going from a well tuned JP SCS with the spring and weights optimized, then going to the Blitzkrieg. 

I went back and forth to make sure it was not a fluke and it remained consistent.  I test everything that goes into my gun, just because it works for someone else does not

mean that it will work in my application.  This buffer works in my application.  YMMV.

Hello: I think you need to do some more tuning with the JP buffer. Mine are about the same for both and so are the times. The Blitzkrieg maybe a little softer but I am also using a shorter stroke with it. I may try a JP buffer and shorten the stroke with it also by making a different bump stop at the rear. Thanks, Eric

[Patrick Scott]

Im going to email Kynshot(the maker of the Blitzkrieg buffer) and ask them the theory of operation on these things. Wish me luck 
FWIW I have run everything from the Colt SMG setup to the JP SCS to really funky stuff with all kinds of buffer springs. At the moment(last season) I was running a hyd buffer, 308 car spring, wave spring

Edited March 31, 2018 by Patrick Scott

[L9X25]

Just now, Patrick Scott said:

Im going to email Kynshot(the maker of the Blitzkrieg buffer) and ask them the theory of operation on these things. Wish me luck 

 

Please post their response, I would love to hear it too.

[Patrick Scott]

1 minute ago, L9X25 said:

 

Please post their response, I would love to hear it too.

Oh, for sure

[MikieM]

And ask them for any scientific test data that may have been gathered. Not anecdotal stuff, and for sure, no product reviews.

Edited April 1, 2018 by MikieM

[Patrick Scott]

2 minutes ago, MikieM said:

And ask them for any scientific test data that has been gathered. Not anecdotal.

Dang it, too late. I already sent.

 

[MikieM]

No problem. Let us know.

[TRUBL]

4 hours ago, L9X25 said:

I guess someone is going to have to put a camera in there and see what it is actually doing before we can have a definitive answer.

 

What I can say is that my bill drill groups were cut in half when going from a well tuned JP SCS with the spring and weights optimized, then going to the Blitzkrieg. 

I went back and forth to make sure it was not a fluke and it remained consistent.  I test everything that goes into my gun, just because it works for someone else does not

mean that it will work in my application.  This buffer works in my application.  YMMV.

oh BS.......you guys got duped.......they are NOT as fast as they claim to be, they don't make the bumper, neither does Kynshot........they either use the Ace shock or somethign very similar......no 400 cycles/minute. You guys are running a placebo.....its great cause you spend so much money on a fragile product that is gonna break......sorry.....the only reason why I am saying this.....I HATE deception....it's BS

 

The DATA....is ALL in the link I gave......pretty easy to figure out which model shock it is

Edited April 1, 2018 by TRUBL

[Patrick Scott]

1 minute ago, TRUBL said:

oh BS.......you guys got duped.......they are NOT as fast as they claim to be, they don't make the bumper, neither does Kynshot........they either use the Ace shock or somethign very similar......no 400 cycles/minute. You guys are running a placebo.....its great cause you spend so much money on a fragile product that is gonna break......sorry.....the only reason why I am saying this.....I HATE deception....it's BS

 

The DATA....is ALL in the link I gave......pretty easy to figure out which model shock it is

Placebo? The timer doesnt care about placebos does it? 

[TRUBL]

7 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

Placebo? The timer doesnt care about placebos does it? 

think mmmmmaybe that it's not the buffer? I assume you run the wave spring too

 

[Patrick Scott]

5 minutes ago, TRUBL said:

think mmmmmaybe that it's not the buffer? I assume you run the wave spring too

 

Ive run it all(not literally) in testing except for the current breed of buffers like yours and MBX.  I use what the timer and target, not my eye/shoulder/hands tell me to run.  

[TRUBL]

first off......I'm NOT trying to promote mine......I do believe it is the shit, but that is not the point here.......with your wave spring set up, instead of the the hydro buffer....try a std buffer of the same weight