Loaded/unloaded Gun On Table Starts

[SmittyFL]

I don't consider myself a big gamer, but I've never understood the big deal with propping up the gun. So what? Are people just jealous they already shot and didn't think of it? What are you saving by proping it? .05? I've drilled it both ways, it doesn't make a difference. For me anyway.

If you design courses, and I do, you should expect folks to try and shoot holes in them. Sometimes literally! It's not personal.....it's freestyle. There are limits and we have rules for those limits, you can't kick down a wall for example.

If you can't sleep at night because someone propped their gun up, then write it in the f'in stage briefing.

At the '04 Nationals, there was a table start stage. All it said was gun on table. Up until that time, if the WSB didn't say flat, I had always started with my gun sitting up on the dust cover and mag, ala Eric G. So when I'm up, I load my gun and set it up like that. The RO says "you can't do that", I said "why"? He said "because, I deemed it unsafe". Whatever, I'm on the starting line at the Nationals, I don't need to argue right before I shoot. Point is, it messed with my mojo and I had my only penalty of the match on that stage. All he had to to was f*#king say FLAT in the stage brief. It ain't real hard.

Because of that incident, I always practice and plan on putting the gun flat regardless of what the WSB says. It isn't worth the hassle.

[Jake Di Vita]

TDean,

You can put your mags where ever you want as long as you don't use the ones that didn't start on your person.

[Jim Norman]

If there is a specific start position, it is fine to have the RO demo it. However in the absense of a definitive start position, ie., gun on table is the only information given, there is no where in the rules that allows the RO to dictate a specific position for the gun. If the WSB says as demonstrated by the RO, that is fine with me. If it doesn't, and there is no other information given, then any manner in which I place my gun on the table is acceptable.

Jim Norman

[Flexmoney]

TDean,

You can put your mags where ever you want as long as you don't use the ones that didn't start on your person.

Where do you get that?

You can't add extra props to a stage.

[note: smartass reply below]

If you stick a mag on a stage as a prop, expect me (as Match Director) to keep your mag all weekend and let all the shooters use it.

[GuildSF4]

IMHO the stage designer should put it in the description if they want it specific, if not... No whining...

[SteveZ]

I've asked John Amidon for a ruling on all of this as there seems to be two beliefs right now...1) you can use your mags as props/markers and 2) you can't.

When I get a response, I'll pass it on.

[Jake Di Vita]

Then you have to define what is a prop and what isn't.

I don't have my rulebook handy, but I don't remember reading that everything has to start on you....from memory it says everything used in the stage must come frmo you unless otherwise specified.

[BSeevers]

TDean,

You can put your mags where ever you want as long as you don't use the ones that didn't start on your person.

Where do you get that?

You can't add extra props to a stage.

[note: smartass reply below]

If you stick a mag on a stage as a prop, expect me (as Match Director) to keep your mag all weekend and let all the shooters use it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's why I carry a 7 rd GI .45 mag in my bag. Hey what the heck keep it.

[SteveZ]

I've asked John Amidon for a ruling on all of this as there seems to be two beliefs right now...1) you can use your mags as props/markers and 2) you can't.

When I get a response, I'll pass it on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok..here's my follow up. I asked John Amidon if there was any ruling that prevents a shooter from introducing items into a COF such as propping a gun up using a magazine or roll of tape, etc.

Johns response was "Rule 3.2.1 states that you must list on the stage briefing such things as start position and gun ready condition, it is up to the RO to see that everyone gets the same fair chance by following the stage procedure. The best way to control this in the first place, is to put into the stage briefing, that gun is on table, loaded, muzzle down range and laying flat on table, gun may not be propped up."

So there you have it. The requirement is that if you don't want the gun propped on the start, you should say so in the WSB. If you don't say so in the WSB, then its up to the shooter as to how they want to start the gun. John also pointed out that if the shooter does prop the gun and then launches it off the table on the start (or the gun falls off the table because the gun tips over)...its a DQ (obviously).

I asked John to comment about using "markers" such as magazines or other items and didn't get an answer to that one. Apparently thats OK too?

[GuildSF4]

I asked John to comment about using "markers" such as magazines or other items and didn't get an answer to that one.  Apparently thats OK too?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What do you mean by markers? Something to mark where you want to shoot/see at? If so I have been told no go (In RO class) as that would be altering the course of fire... (Even making marks on ground was considered a no go.)

[SteveZ]

What do you mean by markers? Something to mark where you want to shoot/see at? If so I have been told no go (In RO class) as that would be altering the course of fire... (Even making marks on ground was considered a no go.)

I had hoped that John would have addressed this question to him as I had asked him for clarification on this specifically. There is nothing in the rule book about "altering" a course of fire..only interfering with it...

4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural

foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including

targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations

may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion

of the Range Officer.

So I guess the feeling here (from what your saying above) is that dragging your toe across the dirt (or placing a magazine) is "interfering" with a COF IF the RO (at their discretion) views it as such?

[GuildSF4]

What do you mean by markers? Something to mark where you want to shoot/see at? If so I have been told no go (In RO class) as that would be altering the course of fire... (Even making marks on ground was considered a no go.)

I had hoped that John would have addressed this question to him as I had asked him for clarification on this specifically. There is nothing in the rule book about "altering" a course of fire..only interfering with it...

4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural

foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including

targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations

may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion

of the Range Officer.

So I guess the feeling here (from what your saying above) is that dragging your toe across the dirt (or placing a magazine) is "interfering" with a COF IF the RO (at their discretion) views it as such?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That was the information given at the RO class I attended (a couple years ago) by the instructor. A ruling would be nice on this though.

[SteveZ]

well here's some other information I've received from John. I asked about if it would be legal to prop a gun up with a roll of tape and introducing items into a stage.

Johns answer was that (and I'm paraphrasing).... if the WSB DIDN'T say that you couldn't prop the gun with a roll of tape..then you could...but if the WSB said "gun laying flat" or "can't be propped up with a roll of tape" then you couldn't. Furthermore he said that the introduction of "items" into a COF is no different than a shooter facing a low port on a stage and deciding to go back to his range bag and grabbing a set of knee pads. The shooter has now added "items" to a COF.

I didn't pose the question about if the shooter decided to use these "items" as markers however based on what John has said about adding items to a COF (and using the knee pads as an example)...I'd guess that unless the RO objected to it .... it would be allowed too. 4.5.1 talks about interfering with the range surface. I'd interpret that as filling in holes in the range surface or other similar ideas....I don't believe dragging your toe across the dirt is interfering (because if that was the case...I'm going to REALLY interfere with the stage when I run around on it!) and I'd guess placing a "marker" wouldn't be interfering either...and there's nothing in the rule book about altering a stage (and this doesn't really fall under section 2.3 either).

[ErikW]

sagdfkljhfgdflhs

Oops, sorry, that was my jaw falling onto my keyboard.

I can't wait to introduce a Sawzall onto a stage with ports.

[Nik Habicht]

sagdfkljhfgdflhs

Oops, sorry, that was my jaw falling onto my keyboard.

I can't wait to introduce a Sawzall onto a stage with ports.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Erik,

that's cool, as long as you can find power, do your cutting on the clock, and don't rearrange the range surface with saw dust, wood chips, etc........

Steven,

I'm pretty sure that Amidon didn't fully comprehend or answer your question; if I'm wrong about this though, I'm fairly confident that the Board would deal with such a decision........

[EricW]

So I guess I'm good to go with my custom-formed coathanger gun stand...?

Any objections to my marking my path through the COF with grading whiskers and spray paint?

[kevin c]

(just musing out loud here)

Amidon's example of the kneepads is of an item of equipment that the shooter, at his option, brings with him to the start position and starts on his person. It seems the same as the shooter's choice of what he wears, whether he has a Spyderco in his back pocket, and how many mags he has on his person.

Leaving a personal item on the stage before the LAMR command, especially if it is intended by the shooter to aid his running of the COF, would seem to be a 4.5.1 alteration (and I'd sure consider that "interfering" with it) of the COF (the start condition of the stage is now different in a significant way) that could be penalized by the RO, or removed by him at his discretion. Making a mark to aid you in hitting a shooting position by scuffing the ground is altering the range surface, and the RO is entitled to alter right back to its original condition. Marking a prop certainly seems to be a 4.5.1 no no.

I'd say bringing it with you, and starting with it on your person should be allowed. If not, the RO could cite 4.5.1. Seems like, in using a mag to prop a gun at the start, there might be cause to argue against allowing it ion 4.5.1 grounds. That sounds discretionary, and it seems that most RO's allow it on the grounds of it being "freestyle".

The short version is that it's more explicit to just say "no props" in the WSD rather than rely on a rule interpretation where opinions can be wildly different. I'd still argue, though, that leaving your stuff down range with the intent of using it to your advantage could be considered altering the stage.

.02 worth...

[folsoml]

Did I read that right? Wearing knee pads for a low port could considered adding things to a COF? What if you always wear knee pads? Would wearing long pants also be "adding things" if they gave a measure of knee protection?

[SteveZ]

Steven,

I'm pretty sure that Amidon didn't fully comprehend or answer your question; if I'm wrong about this though, I'm fairly confident that the Board would deal with such a decision........

Well he may not of understood my question about using magazines as marker (however I clearly asked "can a person use magazines as "markers" on a stage if they don't use them during the COF)...but I'm VERY certain he understood my question about using a roll of tape to prop the gun because I asked the question directly 2 times (his first response was that its the requirement of the WSB to clearly spell out the start position)...I then again asked specifically about propping the gun with a roll of tape (assuming the WSB said "gun on table" and nothing more)....and thats where he said that a roll of tape would be legal provided the WSB didn't state either "gun laying flat" on table or "gun can't be propped with a roll of tape".

If you want more clarification, I'd suggest sending John an email and asking more questions.

[SteveZ]

Leaving a personal item on the stage before the LAMR command, especially if it is intended by the shooter to aid his running of the COF, would seem to be a 4.5.1 alteration (and I'd sure consider that "interfering" with it) of the COF (the start condition of the stage is now different in a significant way) that could be penalized by the RO, or removed by him at his discretion.

As previously pointed out...at Area 1 in Missoula during the Hot Potato stage, one of the more creative shooters wore a womans bra to strategically carry the "potato" during the COF ...and then removed it for the rest of the match.....this was allowed BTW. So by your definition/interpertation of 4.5.1...is that "altering" a stage?

[Nik Habicht]

What you wear on your person is way different from what you place in the free fire zone prior to making your attempt at a stage: You've always been allowed to change sunglass tints, switch from muffs to plugs, or add knee or elbow pads. Tossing any equipment in the freefire zone to allow you to know where to stand to see everything has always been a no-no. Expect me to remove said objects from the freefire zone, if I'm ROing you......

Tossing your mags at activators after the start beep, to save some steps would be cool....

[shred]

Tossing any equipment in the freefire zone to allow you to know where to stand to see everything has always been a no-no.  Expect me to remove said objects from the freefire zone, if I'm ROing you......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The sneaky RO will merely move them. The evil RO will move them when the shooter is watching.

[GuildSF4]

Tossing any equipment in the freefire zone to allow you to know where to stand to see everything has always been a no-no.  Expect me to remove said objects from the freefire zone, if I'm ROing you......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The sneaky RO will merely move them. The evil RO will move them when the shooter is watching.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep.