What is Engaging a Target?

[race1911]

in the USPSA Rulebook , Section 4.3 covers approved metal targets along with Appendix B....NOWHERE does it state that a target once engaged is not STILL a target.....so to simply answer the question as posed a competitor would be following the WSB as it is written by putting the box down and quickly shooting a shot at a downed popper would definitely be considered "engaging a final target" and thus avoid any procedural penalties........NOTE: to be an approved metal popper target 50% of the calibration zone must have been available at some point in the course of fire, so whatever position those poppers were engaged previous to the final position they would have to be in compliance with this to be classed as a "target" and thus still a "'target" even though downed in the final shooting position

Edited December 18, 2017 by race1911

[RJH]

34 minutes ago, race1911 said:

.NOTE: to be an approved metal popper target 50% of the calibration zone must have been available at some point in the course of fire, so whatever position those poppers were engaged previous to the final position they would have to be in compliance with this to be classed as a "target" and thus still a "'target" even though downed in the final shooting position

 

So what you are saying, is when you shoot at the steel target that has fallen down and no longer has 50% of the calibration showing, it cant be an official target, so obviously you cannot be engaging a target.  Thanks for finding the rule that supports that fact

Edited December 18, 2017 by RJH

[mreed911]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

So what you are saying, is when you shoot at the steel target that has fallen down and no longer has 50% of the calibration showing, it cant be an official target

 

No, he's saying once a target always a target as long as at least 50% of the calibration zone was visible from a shooting position.  Up and down don't change it being a target.

[teros135]

 

I say it's BS to the max to argue that a target that's been engaged and has fallen to the ground (and had gotten you an alpha) can be "engaged" again.   You're not "engaging" it to gain points (you can't,  there are no points available), you're trying to cheat the stage. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by teros135

[RJH]

1 minute ago, mreed911 said:

 

No, he's saying once a target always a target as long as at least 50% of the calibration zone was visible from a shooting position.  Up and down don't change it being a target.

 

I know what he was saying, but the rule he quoted proves that to be false.  If a steel does not have 50% of the calibration showing it is not an official target.  Downed steel tends to not have 50% of the calibration zone showing. 

[teros135]

There is no calibration zone on a downed target, is there?  It's down, can't be calibrated. 

[mreed911]

8 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I know what he was saying, but the rule he quoted proves that to be false.  If a steel does not have 50% of the calibration showing it is not an official target.  Downed steel tends to not have 50% of the calibration zone showing. 

 

Whether it's down or not is a secondary concern.  If it's a valid target at the start of the COF it's a valid target at the end of the COF.  Whether it's up or down is a concern for scoring.

 

10 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

I say it's BS to the max to argue that a target that's been engaged and has fallen to the ground (and had gotten you an alpha) can be "engaged" again.   You're not "engaging" it to gain points (you can't,  there are no points available), you're trying to cheat the stage. 

 

So if I put a round downrange towards a downed steel target after ULSC is that a DQ since it wasn't in the direction of a target?

 

4 minutes ago, teros135 said:

There is no calibration zone on a downed target, is there?  It's down, can't be calibrated. 

 

Of course there's a calibration zone on a downed target.  The physical properties of a target don't change whether it's up or down.  There's no need to calibrate a downed target, however.

Edited December 18, 2017 by mreed911

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

Whether it's down or not is a secondary concern.  If it's a valid target at the start of the COF it's a valid target at the end of the COF.  Whether it's up or down is a concern for scoring.

 

 

 

So if you start a stage and all the steel is up, then the wind blows one over (we have big winds here, not sure about where you are), is it still a valid target, or do you get a reshoot cause you can no longer engage all the targets.  I think the same applies here.  If it was paper targets that we were reengaging I would have a different opinion.

[RJH]

10 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

 

 

Of course there's a calibration zone on a downed target.  The physical properties of a target don't change whether it's up or down.  There's no need to calibrate a downed target, however.

 

Also you have to be able to see the calibration zone.  Would a target that you cannot see the calibration zone be an official target?  What if it was directly behind a wall and you never could see it, would you get the miss and FTSA penalty? I don't think so

[RJH]

Also I hate gimmicky stages, because of this kind of stuff, leave the challenges shooting oriented and life is better

[mreed911]

19 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

So if you start a stage and all the steel is up, then the wind blows one over (we have big winds here, not sure about where you are), is it still a valid target, or do you get a reshoot cause you can no longer engage all the targets.  I think the same applies here.  If it was paper targets that we were reengaging I would have a different opinion.

 

You do not get a reshoot because you can't engage a target.

 

You get a reshoot for range equipment failure.

 

16 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Also you have to be able to see the calibration zone.  Would a target that you cannot see the calibration zone be an official target?  What if it was directly behind a wall and you never could see it, would you get the miss and FTSA penalty? I don't think so

 

At the start of a valid course of fire at least 50% of the calibration zone must be visible.  That's the only requirement regarding visibility.

 

14 minutes ago, RJH said:

Also I hate gimmicky stages, because of this kind of stuff, leave the challenges shooting oriented and life is better

 

Agreed.

[race1911]

mreed911 is stating me correctly:   IF at any time during a course of fire 50% of the calibration zone of a popper is visible then it is classed as an approved target for the duration of the COF (even at the last shooting position being in the downed position it is then still an approved target and can still be engaged).....as long as the popper met the rules requirement at some point in the stage there should be no penalties asessed for putting the box down and firing a shot at one of the downed poppers according to how the WSB was written in this instance, regardless of how (un)ethical it may sound

Edited December 18, 2017 by race1911

[RJH]

I am still leaning toward not a target, but this would end coming down to a RM call, I bet

[race1911]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

I am still leaning toward not a target, but this would end coming down to a RM call, I bet

 

You would surely lose that bet as the RM would have to make the call according to the USPSA Rulebook

[mreed911]

7 minutes ago, RJH said:

I am still leaning toward not a target, but this would end coming down to a RM call, I bet

 

5 minutes ago, race1911 said:

 

You would surely lose that bet as the RM would have to make the call according to the USPSA Rulebook

 

Agreed.  The ONLY time a determination is is made/matters on whether something is a target is during stage design/approval and at the commencement of the COF.  In other words, all targets that qualify as such at the start of a COF are targets throughout the COF and through scoring.

 

Targets don't magically become "not targets" because they go down.  At that point, they're just downed steel targets and nothing prevents re-engaging them.  A simple "I glanced at it and thought it wasn't down" is enough to beat any challenge to firing a shot at it.

 

As for the RM, they'll have already determined it's a target before commencement of firing at the match. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by mreed911

[RJH]

18 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

 

Agreed.  The ONLY time a determination is is made/matters on whether something is a target is during stage design/approval and at the commencement of the COF.  In other words, all targets that qualify as such at the start of a COF are targets throughout the COF and through scoring.

 

Targets don't magically become "not targets" because they go down.  At that point, they're just downed steel targets and nothing prevents re-engaging them.  A simple "I glanced at it and thought it wasn't down" is enough to beat any challenge to firing a shot at it.

 

As for the RM, they'll have already determined it's a target before commencement of firing at the match. 

 

Disappearing targets are considered no longer available for engagement, so targets can be considered no longer engageable.  A steel which has fallen is much closer to a disappearing target in that there is no scoring zone available, than it is like a static paper which has an available scoring zone. While the rule book doesn't say that targets are no longer targets because they go down, it also doesn't say that they are still scorable targets.  If you shoot down an array of steel  targets then take off running in that direction with finger in a trigger guard do you get DQed, or do you simply say, "I was still engaging that steel that I had shot down"

[GrumpyOne]

My thinker box hurts. Much simpler to make a non-gimmicky stage, and much less stress on the designer, RM, etc. 

[teros135]

2 hours ago, GrumpyOne said:

My thinker box hurts. Much simpler to make a non-gimmicky stage, and much less stress on the designer, RM, etc. 

 

That's what we've been trying to say. ..

[Sarge]

All of this talk of a downed popper still being an engageable target is one of the weakest arguments I’ve ever heard. 

  So naturally DNROI will rule in favor of it being the case.?

[RJH]

17 minutes ago, Sarge said:

All of this talk of a downed popper still being an engageable target is one of the weakest arguments I’ve ever heard. 

  So naturally DNROI will rule in favor of it being the case.?

 

Yep

[teros135]

So if a downed popper (say the new ones that aren't hinged) falls completely off its stand but rests sideways on the ground so you can't re-"engage" it (or "calibrate" it), is that now a REF?

 

Isn't this fun?   Silly,  but fun 

[Gary Stevens]

Steel must fall to score. If it has fallen it is scored and therefore not available foe engagement.

[motosapiens]

having to do something before engaging the final target is imho like having to do a mandatory reload before engaging a particular array. If you have already engaged every target before you do the specified action, that is like engaging the array before the mandatory reload. You can't get out of the procedural by 're-engaging' the final target (or by re-engaging the array) after doing the specified action.  it's clearly a procedural.

 

still a dumb stage design.

 

 

[JAFO]

Would it really matter?  I don't know what the distance between things are on the ground, but let's assume it takes 10 seconds to shoot all A's on the stage without addressing the basket, and another 2 seconds to go pick it up, place it on the barrel, and fire that last shot.  That's (160pts - 10pt penalty)/10sec = 15.0 HF for ignoring the basket, and 160pts/12sec = 13.3 HF for chasing it and throwing an extra shot.

[nuidad]

Thanks for all your input.  We shot the stage without any incidences and it seemed to be very popular.  The results are posted on PractiScore under BIPS USPSA December, 17 2017 for your perusal.

 

Great discussion....made my melon ache but I really enjoy this aspect of our sport (the BE think tank).

 

The final design is attached.  Try it next month...live dangerously!

 

I have also attached (hesitatingly) a little diddy I set up to see how the bags on barrels would affect scores.  I had a young man run the boxes to barrels to see how fast it might be done.  He spent about 3-5 seconds each with an average TOTAL of around 12 seconds.  I actually had my laptop at the range so shooters could make estimates.  (they weren't too interested in that aspect of the stage).  Obviously I have too much time on my hands (retired).  NERDS RULE!!!

12-17-17 BOB.pdf

Stage Calculator.xlsx

Edited December 19, 2017 by nuidad