Butt of gun and belt location

[mikeinctown]

This may seem like a really easy question but in production the rules say butt of gun above top of belt, but not entire butt of gun or any other specific wording. The picture shown in the appendix is fairly generic as well. My holster can be adjusted down another half inch or so beyond what it is now but then the entire butt would not be ablve the belt, just 3/4 of the butt would be.

 

Given that things really aren't cut and dry with respect to rulings (barrel bushings, hammers) is the rule the entire butt of the gun, a majority, or any portion?

 

Thanks

[ktm300]

This seems pretty descriptive.  The heel is the word that you need definition on?

 

The drop offset type holster is allowed in production Division as long as the heel of the butt of the gun is above the belt per 5.2.7.2 and the rest of the criteria are met.

 

5.2.7.2 A holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt, except as specified in Appendix D, or otherwise indicated in Rule 5.2.8.

defines that you can't start in this condition.

 

I take the heel as the back of the bottom of the grip so for me to start you the back of bottom of the grip needs to be above the belt.

 

edit to clarify heel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by ktm300

[mikeinctown]

11 minutes ago, ktm300 said:

This seems pretty descriptive.  The heel is the word that you need definition on?

 

The drop offset type holster is allowed in production Division as long as the heel of the butt of the gun is above the belt per 5.2.7.2 and the rest of the criteria are met.

 

5.2.7.2 A holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt, except as specified in Appendix D, or otherwise indicated in Rule 5.2.8.

defines that you can't start in this condition.

 

I take the heel as the bottom of the grip so for me to start you the whole bottom of the grip needs to be above the belt.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, that was my question, or at least the majority. Just wasn't sure if the entire thing needed to be above, or the majority or some other amount. Other rules are fairly cut and dry with measurements for example. An exact amount.

 

I am likely wrong on my terminology but to me the butt of the gun is where you insert the mag, so the heel would be the back portion of that, not the entire bottom of the gun. This is where I am getting confused.

[GrumpyOne]

This may help.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_(firearms)

 

While it shows a rifle or shotgun,  the general principle is the same.

[MemphisMechanic]

If there's any kind of check done at a major, they'll eyeball your rig from behind to see if the back of the grip (basically the backside of the magwell opening) is above the top edge of your belt.

 

I set my BOSS hanger up so that this spot is about 1/2" above the belt to make sure it wasn't a judgement call, and it has worked just fine.

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[mikeinctown]

1 hour ago, GrumpyOne said:

This may help.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_(firearms)

 

While it shows a rifle or shotgun,  the general principle is the same.

 

Thank you. So I can go the little bit lower on the hanger according to the terminology. I had the entire butt of the gun above the belt but can lower it the last half inch.

[ktm300]

IMHO to save yourself some trouble having the whole butt above the belt is a good idea.  That 1/2" makes little or no difference.

[GeneBray]

This may seem like a really easy question but in production the rules say butt of gun above top of belt, but not entire butt of gun or any other specific wording. The picture shown in the appendix is fairly generic as well. My holster can be adjusted down another half inch or so beyond what it is now but then the entire butt would not be ablve the belt, just 3/4 of the butt would be.
 
Given that things really aren't cut and dry with respect to rulings (barrel bushings, hammers) is the rule the entire butt of the gun, a majority, or any portion?
 
Thanks

The rule says the "heel of the butt". The butt is then bottom of the grip. The heel is bottom of the back strap. The heel must be above the top of the belt.


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[idahobuckeye]

Watch this, it is relatively informative for what you are asking. It was made by a buddy of mine that I shoot with.

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[pete627]

I love this rule … (naw ...) 

 

The year they started allowing 8 shot revolvers I got one and while attempting to set up a belt to use for both  USPSA "and" ICORE … I also got to do a lot of research on the "heel" of the butt. Using a "muzzle forward" cant with the revolver only added to the fun.

 

… because …

 

(as already stated) USPSA requires the heel be above the top of the belt but ICORE requires it to be above the bottom of the belt. 

 

USPSA - 5.2.7.2 - (may not commence w/) A holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt …

ICORE - 5.4 - The heel of the butt of the gun is not allowed below the bottom of the belt.

[jcc7x7]

Set it up so there is no question in your mind or anybody elses!

then practice for muscle memory and think about more important things.

[GeneBray]

Updated equipment position diagram.  Not certain as to where this stands as an official rule/policy.  Only published in Front Sight and, as I recall, was not identified as an NROI policy.  See attached file.

 

Also, placing a magazine in a pocket and using it for a reload after the "Standby" command it okay so long as the placement of the magazine in a pocket meets all the requirements of magazine placement required by the rules.  From current rule book:

 

5.2.4
During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated
otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or
speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to
the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless
specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may
also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel
pocket(s) and retrieve and use them, providing that the location of the
apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item
12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).
Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed
loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the
restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from
the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the
command “ if clear, hammer down and holster”. (e.g. – a magazine may
be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start
signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty). When
stipulations in the WSB require placement of magazines or speed
loaders on a table or similar location and not in the retention devices
prior to the start signal, retrieving them and using them from the hand is
allowed. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading
devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the
equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12, as long as they
remain in the hand.

 

 

EquipmentPosition-App-E3.pdf

[GrumpyOne]

18 minutes ago, GeneBray said:

Updated equipment position diagram.  Not certain as to where this stands as an official rule/policy.  Only published in Front Sight and, as I recall, was not identified as an NROI policy.  See attached file.

 

Also, placing a magazine in a pocket and using it for a reload after the "Standby" command it okay so long as the placement of the magazine in a pocket meets all the requirements of magazine placement required by the rules.  From current rule book:

 

 

For the sake of argument. ..

 

See this part of Appendix D4 (Production) and D5 (Single Stack) bullet point 20

 

•Each magazine must be contained individually 
within the magazine pouch. Magazines may not be 
retained through magnetic means.

 

A back pocket on your pants is not a magazine pouch, per se. If you call it a magazine pouch, then putting 2 mags in the same pocket violates the "individually within the magazine pouch".

 

And how can you reconcile Appendix D4 or D5 bullet point 10 which states :Max. distance of handgun and 
mags/speed loaders from inner side of belt = Handgun and Mags - 2”

 

A mag in the back pocket is more than 2" from the inner part of the belt.

 

While one part of the rules says you can carry the mag in your back pocket, another says it can't be more than 2" from your inner belt.

[GeneBray]

For the sake of argument. ..
 
See this part of Appendix D4 (Production) and D5 (Single Stack) bullet point 20
 
•Each magazine must be contained individually 
within the magazine pouch. Magazines may not be 
retained through magnetic means.
 
A back pocket on your pants is not a magazine pouch, per se. If you call it a magazine pouch, then putting 2 mags in the same pocket violates the "individually within the magazine pouch".
 
And how can you reconcile Appendix D4 or D5 bullet point 10 which states :Max. distance of handgun and 
mags/speed loaders from inner side of belt = Handgun and Mags - 2”
 
A mag in the back pocket is more than 2" from the inner part of the belt.
 
While one part of the rules says you can carry the mag in your back pocket, another says it can't be more than 2" from your inner belt.

No intent to start a debate or be argumentative... The appendices and rule are not mutually exclusive.

D4 & D5 20 Holster and Magazine Holder Restrictions provide specific, division related rules while 5.2.4 is more general and applicable to all divisions. I see the potential for confusion; however, in the last bullet. I believe the two sentences under the last bullet are to be considered together not individually. However, even if taken as two separate statements, 5.2.4 provides an exception to the requirement to place the mag in a holder.

Regarding pockets, if a mag is in a pocket forward of the proper location specified in the rules, there is no problem unless the shooter uses the mag between "Standby" and ICHDAH. This allows use of a Barney mag or an empty mag from any pocket for loading or dropping the hammer if the pistol has a mag disconnect. A mag may be stored in any pocket and used during the COF so long as it meets the position requirements of the division meaning behind the vertical plane touching the front of the hip bone.


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[mikeinctown]

21 hours ago, GrumpyOne said:

For the sake of argument. ..

 

See this part of Appendix D4 (Production) and D5 (Single Stack) bullet point 20

 

•Each magazine must be contained individually 
within the magazine pouch. Magazines may not be 
retained through magnetic means.

 

A back pocket on your pants is not a magazine pouch, per se. If you call it a magazine pouch, then putting 2 mags in the same pocket violates the "individually within the magazine pouch".

 

And how can you reconcile Appendix D4 or D5 bullet point 10 which states :Max. distance of handgun and 
mags/speed loaders from inner side of belt = Handgun and Mags - 2”

 

A mag in the back pocket is more than 2" from the inner part of the belt.

 

While one part of the rules says you can carry the mag in your back pocket, another says it can't be more than 2" from your inner belt.

 

The 2" is from the inside, not 2" from the actual belt location. So unless you have a huge ass, a mag placed in your back pocket would be within 2" from the inside of the belt when measured vertically anyway. At my last match we had an unloaded start and so I jammed my first mag inside my belt behind my hip bone and grabbed it first. Going to add a 6th pouch for those unloaded start stages as I normally just use a knife pocket on my 5.11 pants for the first mag, but it is just slightly forward legal so I cannot use it for unloaded starts.

[GrumpyOne]

11 minutes ago, mikeinctown said:

 

The 2" is from the inside, not 2" from the actual belt location. So unless you have a huge ass, a mag placed in your back pocket would be within 2" from the inside of the belt when measured vertically anyway. At my last match we had an unloaded start and so I jammed my first mag inside my belt behind my hip bone and grabbed it first. Going to add a 6th pouch for those unloaded start stages as I normally just use a knife pocket on my 5.11 pants for the first mag, but it is just slightly forward legal so I cannot use it for unloaded starts.

It wouldn't be 2" from the inner belt if it turned sideways in a baggy back pocket.

[GeneBray]

It wouldn't be 2" from the inner belt if it turned sideways in a baggy back pocket.

Doesn't have to be 2" from belt if in a pocket.


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[StealthyBlagga]

On 7/13/2017 at 8:15 AM, jcc7x7 said:

Set it up so there is no question in your mind or anybody elses!

then practice for muscle memory and think about more important things.

 

THIS. I see so many folks trying to game holster position to the Nth degree. Then they have to screw around with it right before they shoot, which is a huge distraction to the mental preparation. How much is gained by the lower or wider holster position is HIGHLY debatable.

 

 

On 7/14/2017 at 6:34 AM, mikeinctown said:

 

The 2" is from the inside, not 2" from the actual belt location. So unless you have a huge ass, a mag placed in your back pocket would be within 2" from the inside of the belt when measured vertically anyway. At my last match we had an unloaded start and so I jammed my first mag inside my belt behind my hip bone and grabbed it first. Going to add a 6th pouch for those unloaded start stages as I normally just use a knife pocket on my 5.11 pants for the first mag, but it is just slightly forward legal so I cannot use it for unloaded starts.

 

Having the magazine tucked in your belt at the start is not legal - the RO should not have started you. See rule 5.2.4, which permits magazines to be carried ONLY in pouches or apparel pockets.

Edited July 22, 2017 by StealthyBlagga

[MemphisMechanic]

Personally I think they should have allowed mags carried in your back pockets (i.e. typical rear pocket location on blue jeans) in Production. There's certainly no competitive advantage and it would make things easier on brand new shooters who often show up with only two pouches.

 

But oddly enough they forgot to consult me when the division was born, despite clearly being an internet expert in such things.

 

[GrumpyOne]

59 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

But oddly enough they forgot to consult me when the division was born, despite clearly being an internet expert in such things.

How dare they!

[Southpaw]

6 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Personally I think they should have allowed mags carried in your back pockets (i.e. typical rear pocket location on blue jeans) in Production. There's certainly no competitive advantage and it would make things easier on brand new shooters who often show up with only two pouches.

 

Your wish has been granted!  This already is allowed.