Are match entry/access rules needed?

[drewbeck]

Another possible solution is doing it similar to how the Boston marathon handles the issue of supply and demand. Basically they do a tiered registration window depending on skill. So for shooting it would look something like Day 1 GM's can register, day 2 M's can start to register, day 3 A's can start to register, and so on. Once it's full that's where the line is drawn. It would still be first come first served but give a priority to skill level. The MD could give priority to residents or not depending.

If the big demand matches usually fill up on the "B class" registration day and your a C class shooter, your either screwed or you make it a goal to get better so you can compete in that match.

The system works for the 25k people that want to run Boston and they use the pace the person runs at other marathons in the year to establish the classification system for them. Since we already have one it's even simpler solution to implement.

An "Area Championship" should prioritize skill level in that area. If you want to be a part of the match but know you won't make the cutoff, volunteering is the easiest way. That again would prioritize who really wants to be there vs just wants to shoot the match.

This is a competitive sport, it's certainly social as well but when people start wanting it to be a socialized competition it becomes a "local match" in my opinion


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[fastluck13]

29 minutes ago, drewbeck said:

Another possible solution is doing it similar to how the Boston marathon handles the issue of supply and demand. Basically they do a tiered registration window depending on skill. So for shooting it would look something like Day 1 GM's can register, day 2 M's can start to register, day 3 A's can start to register, and so on. Once it's full that's where the line is drawn. It would still be first come first served but give a priority to skill level. The MD could give priority to residents or not depending.

If the big demand matches usually fill up on the "B class" registration day and your a C class shooter, your either screwed or you make it a goal to get better so you can compete in that match.

The system works for the 25k people that want to run Boston and they use the pace the person runs at other marathons in the year to establish the classification system for them. Since we already have one it's even simpler solution to implement.

An "Area Championship" should prioritize skill level in that area. If you want to be a part of the match but know you won't make the cutoff, volunteering is the easiest way. That again would prioritize who really wants to be there vs just wants to shoot the match.

This is a competitive sport, it's certainly social as well but when people start wanting it to be a socialized competition it becomes a "local match" in my opinion


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This makes too much sense for the soccer trophy crowd. Everyone should get to be a champion. Or at least tell their non-shooting friend they are shooting in the National Championship.

[Sarge]

9 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

Lets say that a D class and a Wold Champ GM sign up at the same time. Then the match director decides to allocate slots via a random drawing and the D class shooter got a slot but a World Champ does not. How does that make any sense? Level 3+ matches are there to determine who the CHAMPION is, not fill the match with shooters who don't have a chance in hell in winning.

There are plenty of "Everyone gets to play" tourist matches all across the nation already. 

Now that's snobbish.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, fastluck13 said:

No, no issues getting into a match.

You are right, why not let everyone in. Now that I think about it, they should let you in the superbowl just so your feelings don't get hurt. Everyone should get to play if they want.

And soccer trophys for everyone. 

Good gawd, need a binky? The process works as is. If you want to shoot a match sign up in time. If you want to be in the Super Bowl become a cheerleader.

[drewbeck]

Now that's snobbish.

Sarge how is it snobbish for one of the the first tier shooters is the country to say, he wants to compete against the best when it's considered an Area championship?

Saying to make entry fees 10k so I can buy a championship would be snobbish.

The truth is the best shooters don't care about winning an area match with an asterisk. Without competition, it's a local match with more stages and higher cost

Being ok with mediocrity is what separates us from the champions. Don't make it about us.....


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[Sarge]

3 minutes ago, drewbeck said:

 

Sarge how is it snobbish for one of the the first tier shooters is the country to say, he wants to compete against the best when it's considered an Area championship?

Saying to make entry fees 10k so I can buy a championship would be snobbish.

The truth is the best shooters don't care about winning an area match with an asterisk. Without competition, it's a local match with more stages and higher cost

Being ok with mediocrity is what separates us from the champions. Don't make it about us.....


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Fine. Good luck holding a successful area match with only the top contenders in attendance. Now THAT, would be a local match with bigger stages!

[fastluck13]

11 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Good gawd, need a binky? The process works as is. If you want to shoot a match sign up in time. If you want to be in the Super Bowl become a cheerleader.

Susie soccer trophy asking if someone else needs a binky, awesome. As for me being a cheerleader, I am not the one suggesting everyone should get to shoot in a national championship. Now do those skirts come in your size Susie?

[fastluck13]

1 minute ago, Sarge said:

Fine. Good luck holding a successful area match with only the top contenders in attendance. Now THAT, would be a local match with bigger stages!

Not what he suggested. Only that priority should be granted to those who earned the slot in a championship

[Sarge]

Just now, fastluck13 said:

Not what he suggested. Only that priority should be granted to those who earned the slot in a championship

 

2 minutes ago, fastluck13 said:

Susie soccer trophy asking if someone else needs a binky, awesome. As for me being a cheerleader, I am not the one suggesting everyone should get to shoot in a national championship. Now do those skirts come in your size Susie?

A thin skinned newbie! I love it!!

[drewbeck]

Sounds like a response from someone that doesn't want to let their shooting determine whether they get to play or not


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[fastluck13]

3 minutes ago, Sarge said:

 

A thin skinned newbie! I love it!!

Newbie? How many years do I need to be here? Quite the ego on Susie Soccer Trophy. Perhaps I busy myself shooting vs 18000 posts? Go practice and the class thing won't bother you as much.

[drewbeck]

38 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Good gawd, need a binky? The process works as is. If you want to shoot a match sign up in time. If you want to be in the Super Bowl become a cheerleader.

In your mind the process works fine because you are happy being a cheerleader at the match.

maybe you should take the blinders off and realize there is a competition going on behind you and you and I are there to provide entertainment while the winners are reloading their mags

[js1130146]

31 minutes ago, Sarge said:

 

A thin skinned newbie! I love it!!

Sure didn't take much to get em all riled up.

[Sarge]

Just now, drewbeck said:

In your mind the process works fine because you are happy being a cheerleader at the match.

maybe you should take the blinders off and realize there is a competition going on behind you and you and I are there to provide entertainment while the winners are reloading their mags

I just can't see it that way. Thinking we are just tourist shooters or squad fillers is a really bad way to look at it. I guess I have just been around too long to be in awe of anybody who is really good at anything. Even USPSA GM's. We are too important to the sport to think of ourselves as anything but a competitor just like them. Sure, I admire them for their dedication but they are just a shooter like us in the end.

 This whole train of thought is ill conceived. Major matches just don't happen without us shitty shooters. If anything we are more important to a match's success than the handful of potential winners that show up. Assuming they sign up before we do.

[Sarge]

5 minutes ago, js1130146 said:

Sure didn't take much to get em all riled up.

Riled up is right.

[Chills1994]

I like the Boston marathon example.

 

GM's can sign up on the first day, say Monday.

 

Then the Masters can sign up on the Second day, Tuesday.

 

The A's are allowed to sign up on Wednesday.

 

So on and so forth.

 

And at any time during the week, the higher class shooter can sign up for the match.  So GM's can register any day of the week starting on their monday.  Masters can sign up Tuesday, Wednesday (A's), Thursday (B's), Friday (C's), or Saturday (D's).

 

I think you get the idea.

 

All the way up until the match is full.

 

I would maybe go even one step further, and that is to offer a discounted match fee to the GM's.  Let's say the GM's match fee is $100.  Then make the Master's match fee $125.  The A's pay $150.  And so on and so forth.

 

In a way, it issn incentive to not sandbagg and/or to practice to move up.  

I picked $100 and $25 increments just to make the math easy, but if a match director thinks that highly of his match or there really is that much of demand, he could easily start out at say $200 for the GM's and go by 50 or 75 or heck even 100 dollar increments.

 

It incentivizes GM's coming to your match.

 

 

[drewbeck]

I just can't see it that way. Thinking we are just tourist shooters or squad fillers is a really bad way to look at it. I guess I have just been around too long to be in awe of anybody who is really good at anything. Even USPSA GM's. We are too important to the sport to think of ourselves as anything but a competitor just like them. Sure, I admire them for their dedication but they are just a shooter like us in the end.

 This whole train of thought is ill conceived. Major matches just don't happen without us shitty shooters. If anything we are more important to a match's success than the handful of potential winners that show up. Assuming they sign up before we do.

No disagreement that, the majority group (us) play the largest role in the matches success. However, we do nothing with regards to whether the match was successful in determining an Area Champion. To do that, the best have to compete and to compete they at least should be given priority in being able to sign up.

The risk of the majority not being able to shoot is not an issue, there simply aren't that many top shooters.

It's not a matter of being in awe or bowing down to the best, it's a matter of respecting the "competition" aspect of the sport. We get the opportunity to coexist and play on the same stage as the best in the sport. Without a priority given to competing, we are just diluting the game in my option at this level of event




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[Sarge]

8 hours ago, drewbeck said:

No disagreement that, the majority group (us) play the largest role in the matches success. However, we do nothing with regards to whether the match was successful in determining an Area Champion. To do that, the best have to compete and to compete they at least should be given priority in being able to sign up.

The risk of the majority not being able to shoot is not an issue, there simply aren't that many top shooters.

It's not a matter of being in awe or bowing down to the best, it's a matter of respecting the "competition" aspect of the sport. We get the opportunity to coexist and play on the same stage as the best in the sport. Without a priority given to competing, we are just diluting the game in my option at this level of event




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I could understand maybe giving a 24 hour head start for COMPETITIVE GM's to register. But how do we figure out who that is? Remember, the vast majority if GM's are not competitive on an area or national level so they are just tourists as well, no? 

Like somebody already said, If Bob Vogel calls and says he found out last minute he can shoot my match, I'll get him in. But if Harvey Schmidlap, the GM who wins all of his local matches shooting open division against B and C single stack shooters calls, it's a different story.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Sarge

[EEH]

12 minutes ago, Sarge said:

y Schmidlap, the GM who wins all of his local matches shooting open division against B and C single stack shooters calls

I think I know this guy

[drewbeck]

I think I know this guy

Ya but that dude doesn't want to go to an area match and get beat by A or B class shooter at a big match


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[GrumpyOne]

Gentlemen, pleaee watch the attitudes. Name calling and personal attacks against members will not be tolerated.

[bret]

19 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

Lets say that a D class and a Wold Champ GM sign up at the same time. Then the match director decides to allocate slots via a random drawing and the D class shooter got a slot but a World Champ does not. How does that make any sense? Level 3+ matches are there to determine who the CHAMPION is, not fill the match with shooters who don't have a chance in hell in winning.

There are plenty of "Everyone gets to play" tourist matches all across the nation already. 

 

Are you a World Champ GM?

I think the true World Champ GM's get in the big matches if they want to.

[Gooldylocks]

 

Are you a World Champ GM?

I think the true World Champ GM's get in the big matches if they want to.

Pretty sure Charlie Perez stands a pretty decent chance at most any match he goes to. But if he calls and you personally haven't heard of him so he can't get in, but Vogel calls at the same time and said he wants to shoot you would let him in?

My point is just that saying "competitive GM's can get into matches" is a tough thing. Cause I don't consider myself a world beater by any stretch of the imagination, but I think I would be fairly competitive at the area level, so then if I call and want into your match do you find me a spot?

I still think just changing area matches to favor area residents is the first step.

[bret]

6 minutes ago, Gooldylocks said:

Pretty sure Charlie Perez stands a pretty decent chance at most any match he goes to. But if he calls and you personally haven't heard of him so he can't get in, but Vogel calls at the same time and said he wants to shoot you would let him in?

My point is just that saying "competitive GM's can get into matches" is a tough thing. Cause I don't consider myself a world beater by any stretch of the imagination, but I think I would be fairly competitive at the area level, so then if I call and want into your match do you find me a spot?

I still think just changing area matches to favor area residents is the first step.

Is a GM finishing 19th at Nationals truly competitive?

6 Master's finished higher.

Has he ever won a National Championship?

He is a better shooter than me, but there are better Master Class Shooters than him.

Last 2 years at Nationals anyone that wanted to shoot it could have, they aren't filling the match up.

If a top rated shooter wants to shoot a match, the MD will get them in.

 

[IHAVEGAS]

10 hours ago, Sarge said:

 This whole train of thought is ill conceived. Major matches just don't happen without us shitty shooters. If anything we are more important to a match's success than the handful of potential winners that show up. Assuming they sign up before we do.

Interesting that there is little to no mention of sweat equity as a potential priority for entry.

How many level 2+ matches did you work this year? That kind of stuff.

Perhaps it is only a local thing, but finding an ample crowd to work matches and being able to find ways to reward them somewhat seems more of a practical worry than favoring entries based on performance.