Dq'ed tonight

[teros135]

2 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

I think in the r.o.'s head.

1. He gave you a valid range command to "stop".

2. He then told you to take a few seconds.

3. You then violated 10.5.1 by handling the gun after being told to "stop" and before being issued a range command to resume.

Not wanting to pretend that I understand the rules like most of you folks, or that things were handled well, but if I tell someone to stop I feel that it is important that they stay stopped until I tell them otherwise. 

Hmmm.  I can see this point.  It's somewhat sloppy (the whole "hands over the head" thing) and seems to lead to confusion, but it may be "letter of the law" in the RO's head.  Bret also has a point about "letter of the law" regarding using the commands, but that's perhaps a bit overboard also, since we're pretty much able to handle this situation without a full unload-and-start-over routine, which mainly wastes time. 

The RO does get to issue further instructions after "Stop" (see 8.3.5).  If he wanted to have the shooter put his hands on his head, or at his sides, or stand in front of him, or whatever he could say what he's doing and instruct the shooter not to handle the gun until he says so (by saying "Make Ready" again, which would allow the shooter to go through his pre-run routine, as needed).  I'm not sure what to do with non-English speaking shooters, though, but since they do know the 7 basic range commands I'd probably stick to those (with hand gestures, perhaps, like the hand held up in the international "stop" signal if he heads toward his gun before I say MR again).  Thoughts?

[g.willikers]

IHAVEGAS,

Unless the club has a genuine rule "nerd" on hand, hardly anyone else has a firm grip on the rule book either.

Might just wind up with more arguments about the rules.

And that's assuming over riding the RO's decision would be a consideration.

RO's have feelings, too.

ROs are kind of hard to come by, don't want to chase them away.

How many other sports umpires get their decisions reversed?

Maybe at a really big, major type match, but very doubtful at a local evening one.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by g.willikers

[Gary Stevens]

Rules nerd. Hmmmmm.

[g.willikers]

Quote

Rules nerd. Hmmmmm.

Meant in a good way.

You know, someone who is thoroughly versed in the rules such that they can quickly open it to the exact rule that applies to every situation.

Not too many will ever do that except for the true rules enthusiast.

Thus the term nerd.

Edited December 11, 2016 by g.willikers

[Gary Stevens]

I am proud to be a rules nerd for more than one reason.

It keeps me from getting screwed by the uninformed.

It allows me to intercede, on occasion, to keep another shooter from getting screwed by the uninformed. 

Often it allows me to bring the uninformed up a bit by teaching them right from wrong calls.

You don't need to know how to immediately flip to a rule. However, it is good to have a solid working knowledge of the rulebook and be able to know when something is not right.

It really is not all that hard.

[davsco]

yes, RO said Stop and never said Make Ready again.  but it sounds like by what he said/did that his intent was for the shooter to resume so it does sound like a bs dq.  where i have been stopped i usually ask if i can resume make ready if the RO doesn't say those words.

[bret]

we had a couple of occasions today and yesterday when the shooter was getting ready to start and some steel and targets blew down, I told the shooter

Stop

Unload and show clear, if clear, hammer down, Holster.

Range is clear.

then the props were reset, then I gave the make ready command.

hands over your head is not a range commands, wait while they fix the props is not a range commands.

it doesn't take long to unload and show clear and they start over in their normal routine, less chance they will screw up their start that way.

[PatJones]

Does anyone actually get out the rule book in the middle of a match?

Yes, I have it downloaded to my phone. The search function is Much faster to use than thumbing thru a paper copy.

The range commands are listed in 8.3

"Make ready" signifies the start of the course of fire.

At "Stop" the competitor must

immediately cease firing, stop moving and wait for further instructions

from the Range Officer.

"Range is Clear" signifies the end of the course of fire.

As the shooter was under the direct command of a range officer during a course of fire, I do not believe a DQ under 10.5.1 applies. What is clear is that the "RO" was not following standard procedure.

[IHAVEGAS]

17 hours ago, davsco said:

where i have been stopped i usually ask if i can resume make ready if the RO doesn't say those words.

Seems like a good teaching point, be sure. 

 

11 hours ago, PatJones said:

Yes, I have it downloaded to my phone. The search function is Much faster to use than thumbing thru a paper copy.

As the shooter was under the direct command of a range officer during a course of fire, I do not believe a DQ under 10.5.1 applies.

I am going to make a habit of putting a rule book in my range bag. Have studied the book a bit and passed the course, but it seems like that is just a step on the path and you learn a lot more as you see things happen. 

I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence. 

[George Jones]

I am a "rules enthusiast" and I firmly support the use of only the correct range commands, verbatim, without any "embellishments".

However, there are situations which require something more and it is the responsibility of the RO to maintain positive control over the shooter.  Rule 8.3.5 gives the RO that latitude: further instructions.

To say that anything the RO says in such a situation which is not a range command is incorrect, is.... um, incorrect.

I will say what I need to say, succinctly and precisely, to control the situation.  That's my job, not the shooter's.

[Kraj]

37 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Seems like a good teaching point, be sure. 

 

I am going to make a habit of putting a rule book in my range bag. Have studied the book a bit and passed the course, but it seems like that is just a step on the path and you learn a lot more as you see things happen. 

I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence. 

I keep a copy in my range bag just in case someone doesn't want to read it off my phone. The vast majority of the time I use the search function on my phone though