Wakal Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Just so no one misses out on the discussion: I asked (over at the IPSC/Global) if flashlights were "sighting devices," and if a competitor were to mount one permanently on his Open gun, then would the competitor be able to use it on any stage? I received some interesting replies from The Powers That Be: WAKAL ASKED Rule 5.1.3.2 "Optical/electronic sights" are aiming devices (including flashlights) fitted to a firearm which use electronic circuitry and/or lenses. Rule 5.1.6 states that competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. Ipso facto: since a flashlight is an official "sighting device," any Open shooter with a permanently attached flashlight must be allowed to start any stage with that light turned on. VINCE PINTO REPLIED 1. Under Appendix D1 Open Division, Point 13 indicates "Yes" in response to "Optical/electronic sights permitted". 2. Rule 5.1.3.2 has been officially interpreted and revised to read "(including flashlights) fitted to a firearm". 3. Rule 5.1.7 requires that competitors "use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match". 4. It therefore follows that if a competitor in Open Division wants to have a flashlight attached to his gun, he is permitted to do so provided the flashlight stays attached to the gun for all courses of fire at the match. It does not need to switched on, just like an Aimpoint does not need to be switched on, but both items must stay attached to the gun for the duration of the match. In other words, the flashlight cannot be attached solely for one COF. 5. I'd also point out that Rule 5.1.3.2 specifically and intentionally states "fitted to a firearm". So, if a competitor in Production Division had a flashlight on his belt or in his pocket which he wants to use during a course of fire in a "crossover" hold or similar, this is also legal, because the flashlight is not fitted to his gun, so it cannot be considered an "Optical/electronic sight" in contravention of Production Division rules. TROY MCMANUS ADDED Even if you have a flashlight mounted to your Open gun, you'd still have to comply with the course requirement of holding the match-issued flashlight in your hand, during the course of fire, whether you turned it on or not. And, that light would have to remain on the gun for the duration of the match. Amusing. If a Open competitor wanted to mount a tiny little light to their gun, or wanted to glue a Photon/II to the side of each of their magazine basepads, then they would be allowed to turn it on as desired. Kind of renders Dark Houses moot for Open guys. The discussion on the Global thread is devolving into a very interesting discourse on stage design now Yours, Alex REF: The entire thread: http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=1308&hl= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 You have WAAAYY too much time on your hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Rules idiot here: would this also apply to rifles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Also, can someone explain how I can aim a handgun with a flashlight? Or a rifle? Is there some new trick here that I'm not aware of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingerjg Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Also, can someone explain how I can aim a handgun with a flashlight? Or a rifle? Is there some new trick here that I'm not aware of? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, Dave, if we shot in the dark, it might be an issue. But since i like shooting in the daytime. IDK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Pretty damn good in a lowlight situation actually. You can center the BG up and whack him without ever loking at sights. I just don't see how for one stage a year it is worth all the debate and hooplooh. Take 5 minutes and learn to shoot with the damn light they give you, who knows it might actually save your butt one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted May 20, 2005 Author Share Posted May 20, 2005 This debate started at the Dark House in PASA the day before the 2004 Nationals. One of the San Angelo crowd built himself a 170mm mag with a tactical flashlight permanently attached (he still has it, by the way, and uses it for "dim stages" at non-USPSA matches). He was told "you have to use the flashlight we give you, and only the flashlight we give you." Which was incorrect, based on the IPSC rules clarification of a flashlight as a "sighting device." It should have been disallowed as a "change of sight configuration" since he didn't have lights on all his magazines Anyway, with the popularity of light rails, and the popularity of "tactical" flashlights, and (and and and) the increase in popularity of the "dim house" (even the Texas State 3-Gun, San Angelo Texas, tomorrow!) has one)...someone is going to build a better mousetrap. Our estimation is that shooting a stage full-bore with a weapon-mounted light is going to be about 3-5% better than running it strong-hand-only with a weak-hand light. No big deal, until you get to the top of the heap. But in the meantime, the squealing...oh, the squealing... Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Also, can someone explain how I can aim a handgun with a flashlight? Or a rifle? Is there some new trick here that I'm not aware of? I captured a Surefire X200 rail light from the Nationals prize table. I believe it has screws that would allow it to be regulated..if needed. Here it is at 5y (which is a typical distance for the dark house at the Nationals) : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Okay, make the upper A/B zone the only available brown on that target and surround it with no-shoots. Tell me again how you aim with a flashlight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Dave, You may not want to believe this...but I know it works. (I wouldn't lie to you.) I can take steel plates out to about 15y just with the light...no sights. I can also go around the house and "dryfire" the light onto switch plates. When I peer down onto the sights...they are right on. The picture I posted might not be the best (I thought it showed pretty well). My light has a pretty bright "center" to it. And, perhaps more importantly, it throws a round circle of light. I have shot the Dark House at the Nationals two different years. It is the reason I choose the light off the prize table (over something more expensive). I have been pretty impressed with it since. ...Just to make sure I wasn't blowing smoke...I just took the gun at belly-button level...and lined it up on a switch plate at about 10y. Then, keeping the gun/light on target, I squated down in behind the gun. The sights were right on. I'd be willing to bet a dozen wings and a bucket of beer on the A/B zone surrounded by NS's at 10y. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 As long as we are beating this around... Glock used to make a magazine that had a light holder built into the bottom of it. I don't know if they still make it. I think it was a factory part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 As long as we are beating this around...Glock used to make a magazine that had a light holder built into the bottom of it. I don't know if they still make it. I think it was a factory part. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If it is a factory option does that affect the rule for only open class, don't think it would but... I don't want to be RO at a match and have a competitor arguing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 If a laser is a sighting device, so is a flashlight. If a flashlight isn't, a laser isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Flex - I'll take your bet, and I'd love to be proven wrong (I really would). Erik - I still disagree. A laser is clearly intended as a sighting device. A flashlight is intended to enable the user to locate a target in low/no light, and illuminate the taget so that the gun sights are usable (and also to stun according to SureFire, for one). BTW - I know my harping is a lost, lost cause. I know this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 If a laser is a sighting device, so is a flashlight. If a flashlight isn't, a laser isn't. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But then what is a "laser" developed by the "Alan Parson's Project" using "Preparation H"??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 I think those sorts of lasers are used to attract midgets, IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 This debate started at the Dark House in PASA the day before the 2004 Nationals. One of the San Angelo crowd built himself a 170mm mag with a tactical flashlight permanently attached (he still has it, by the way, and uses it for "dim stages" at non-USPSA matches).He was told "you have to use the flashlight we give you, and only the flashlight we give you." Alex <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I built a special HoserCam headset that incorporated a Tactical Light, alas I wasn't able to use it for the match. I did use it to film the Dark House after the match. I built 10 mounts and figured that if I could use it for score, I would sell 10 HoserCams in about 10 minutes! Nolan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Alright for all you that haven't figured it out yet. Tie the damn flashlight to your hand and go. They give you that nice litttle lanyard so use it. Trust it works just ask the Canadians I showed on our squad last year. Stop trying to reinvent the damn wheel already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 Why bother? This sport is ALL ABOUT making things go faster If attaching a PhotonII microlight to the side of your scope mount with a strip of Velcro solves the problem, so be it. From observation at the Texas State 3-Gun today, I learned that a weapons-mounted flashight (on a tac rail) doesn't mean that the operator can actually MAKE 10-foot head shots without using the (real) sights Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Yeah, but if you've got your own light on, the RO will be able to see you cheating the start position... Heard that happened at Nationals a time or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Alright for all you that haven't figured it out yet. Tie the damn flashlight to your hand and go. They give you that nice litttle lanyard so use it. Trust it works just ask the Canadians I showed on our squad last year. Stop trying to reinvent the damn wheel already! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They make little elastic headbands with a pocket that securely holds a mini-maglite or anything else that you can jam in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Flex - I'll take your bet, and I'd love to be proven wrong (I really would). Cool. We have a bet. (Gee...win or lose...we get to drink beer and eat wings. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Flex - I'll take your bet, and I'd love to be proven wrong (I really would). Cool. We have a bet. (Gee...win or lose...we get to drink beer and eat wings. ) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Haha!!! Yeah, I figured what was the worst that can happen? At the very least I won't be hungry or thirsty. Unable to operate a motor vehicle legally, but I sure won't be thirsty!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 If someone has a flashlight on thier shotgun, is that considered an optic, and so: Open? This was during an outdoor, daylight match, 85 degree, I can't believe it's an advantage.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Berkim, I don't know what the ruling is for shotgun, but the litmus test just can't be "if it is an advantage or not". That is far too subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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