unpasted target - could not find the answer

[herman]

shooting a local uspsa match while engaging the targets the shooter stops shooting & tells the ro there is a unpasted target he then unloads, etc..

does he auto. get a reshoot. ? or.. after he unloads the ro calls to the squad unpasted target, retape the targets he gets a reshoot is this right.. ?

herman

[Edge40]

If the Ro doesn't tell him to stop then he is wrong in stopping. He shouldn't automatically get a re shoot. If you are stopped by the RO then you get a re shoot. I saw this at a match recently. It was a fairly new shooter and he was about to engage a target that was the third or fourth in the stage and saw that it wasn't pasted. He stopped and looked at the RO. RO didn't say anything and neither did anybody else for about 10 seconds or more (I know I know no coaching.) Finally someone said keep going and he did. When it was all said and done the holes in the cardboard were 45 and he was shooting 9. That just further confirmed that the RO was right and he lost a lot of time.

[motosapiens]

no reshoot. NEVER stop yourself unless it is for a safety reason (eyepro or earpro dislodged, or you believe you had a squib). In the situation you describe, the stage is scored as shot. Shooter gets 2 mikes and 1 FTE for every target not engaged.

Now maybe it is his lucky day, and a democrat bernie sanders RO decides that the unpasted holes are the same caliber as the shooter was shooting, and pretends he couldn't tell the difference, and offers a reshoot...... but..... unless the shooter actually shot the unpasted target (so there were holes from multiple shooters), he would be getting an unearned socialist gift from the RO. If he stopped before shooting the unpasted target, then the RO clearly can discern who shot what.

bottom line, shooter needs to read the rulebook.

Edited June 14, 2016 by motosapiens

[herman]

i saw this happen at a match.

[Sarge]

i saw this happen at a match.

We know. Nobody is blasting you. things like this happen all the time at matches. Sometimes RO's make mistakes and sometimes shooters do. In this case the shooter did. There are very few instances where a shooter stops themselves. Obviously if there is a safety issue such as somebody down range or a head pops up over a berm. Then perhaps if he sees steel is not reset or a mover doesn't activate. But hell , sometimes in the latter, many sill don't stop.

But in general, never stop unless told to do so.

[EEH]

I saw this at local match,,new shooter .He said he had only shot three or four matches. RO gave him reshoot,and while he was preparing for next run,I told him what he should have done.Shooter told me he did not know this and I instructed him to get a copy of rules and Read it..

[kevin c]

In Edge40's example with the 9mm shooter having a target with .45 caliber holes, wouldn't a reshoot be possible if there is a 9mm diameter hit missing (possible that the 9mm round went through one of the .45 holes)? Probably not if there are a known number of 9mm shots and an equal number of 9mm holes, but if there is a mismatch in the number of 9mm shots and 9mm holes on target, or if the RO is not certain how many 9mm shots were taken on target?

Clarification: scenario modified in that the shooter engages the target in question..

Edited June 15, 2016 by kevin c

[Nik Habicht]

In Edge40's example with the 9mm shooter having a target with .45 caliber holes, wouldn't a reshoot be possible if there is a 9mm diameter hit missing (possible that the 9mm round went through one of the .45 holes)? Probably not if there are a known number of 9mm shots and an equal number of 9mm holes, but if there is a mismatch in the number of 9mm shots and 9mm holes on target, or if the RO is not certain how many 9mm shots were taken on target? .

Yep, a reshoot could be a possibility in that scenario......

[Sarge]

In Edge40's example with the 9mm shooter having a target with .45 caliber holes, wouldn't a reshoot be possible if there is a 9mm diameter hit missing (possible that the 9mm round went through one of the .45 holes)? Probably not if there are a known number of 9mm shots and an equal number of 9mm holes, but if there is a mismatch in the number of 9mm shots and 9mm holes on target, or if the RO is not certain how many 9mm shots were taken on target? .

Yep, a reshoot could be a possibility in that scenario......

Yep. And this is why a shooter never stops. So many possibilities. Heck the RO might even notice the holes when you index and be able to tell where you hit it, or even if you miss it. It's pretty easy on close targets to tell if a shooter pulls off a target or shoots over the shoulder etc

[kevin c]

Is the RO's say so on the number of shots on target challengeable (Shooter: "I took three [or two] shots and there are only two [or one] 9mm holes along with the .45 holes"; RO: "Yes, you took three [or two] but I saw one way off target"; Shooter: "How can you be sure? Please call the RM"...)?

[EEH]

Is the RO's say so on the number of shots on target challengeable (Shooter: "I took three [or two] shots and there are only two [or one] 9mm holes along with the .45 holes"; RO: "Yes, you took three [or two] but I saw one way off target"; Shooter: "How can you be sure? Please call the RM"...)?

Yes but it would be easy to check the timer on that one!

[kevin c]

The timer would tell the total number of shots. Helps some if only the bare minimum of shots required is what is recorded, but not if extra shots were fired on multiple targets, or if the contention is that the minimum number of shots only were fired but the RO called a miss on the target in question but the shooter says it might have gone through a .45 hole.

So, does the score stand that the RO says the shot in question was clearly a miss, or do we accept the possibility that the shooter's shot is unscoreable because it might have gone through the .45 hole and therefore a reshoot must be done?

Edited June 15, 2016 by kevin c

[JAFO]

That might depend on the miss. I've watched people miss a target and blow a big chunk out of a prop/wall/target stick. Sometimes misses are memorable, especially if the scorekeeper also saw the same thing. But since you are supposed to score based on what the target presents, I think absent something like that, you need to have them reshoot it.

[Nik Habicht]

If I were the RM, and the RO who made the call was in a position to see the target/impact, nd the RO was certain that the competitor drilled an Alpha, then started his transition to the next target and missed wide left or right with his next round at the target in question, I'd uphold that scoring call......

But typically I'd need some detail such as the possibility above, or the shooter was hitting the ground next to the target for both rounds fired or something like that. You talk to your people; if they're not certain in what they saw you overturn the call.....

If you do it well, then generally everyone gets on board with the final decision....

Which is not the same thing as suggesting that it was a decision arrived at by consensus....

[Sarge]

You talk to your people; if they're not certain in what they saw you overturn the call

A good RO should never make any call they are not certain on. As a CRO I wouldn't even bother the RM if one of my RO's wasn't certain about something he 'thought' he saw

[Kraj]

9.1.4 says how to score it. It doesnt say anything about the shooter being able to stop themselves so they are out of luck

[Nik Habicht]

You talk to your people; if they're not certain in what they saw you overturn the call

A good RO should never make any call they are not certain on. As a CRO I wouldn't even bother the RM if one of my RO's wasn't certain about something he 'thought' he saw

Right -- ideally that's how it works. But some ROs and some CROs are new to their roles or new to major matches, and are working hard to get gooder at that. But if the shooter doesn't like the RO's call, and doesn't like the CRO's review, he might appeal to an RM -- once it reaches me, I'll talk to whoever was running the timer and the CRO at minimum from the stage staff. I may chat with any other ROs assigned to the stage to see if they can contribute.....

I've worked as RM at a couple of sectionals and other than being notified of reshoots, I had to make maybe 4 calls for other things between the two matches. Plan the match, be there during the construction, walk the stages with the staff and decide all the potential calls on each stage ahead of time, tweak the WSB and you may not have much to do once the first shot is fired, other than periodic calibration calls......

I love having dedicated volunteers on staff that are proactive, and know how to make the correct call, and when to hand it off to the RM.

[424D57]

I don't recall anything in the rule book which provides guidance on RO's determination of what a shooter was doing during the run for scoring. Targets are scored at the target.

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[teros135]

I don't recall anything in the rule book which provides guidance on RO's determination of what a shooter was doing during the run for scoring. Targets are scored at the target.

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This is correct, as far as I know. RO class, the rule book, and most of the conversations here on BE have seen it this way.

We don't score extra hits on VC stages, for instance, from the line, nor do we score anything we *think* the shooter did or intended, only what the rules say.

[Sarge]

I don't recall anything in the rule book which provides guidance on RO's determination of what a shooter was doing during the run for scoring. Targets are scored at the target.

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This is correct, as far as I know. RO class, the rule book, and most of the conversations here on BE have seen it this way.

We don't score extra hits on VC stages, for instance, from the line, nor do we score anything we *think* the shooter did or intended, only what the rules say.

Both are true. But on a target that is close enough to see very easily, and this varies from RO to RO, it's quite easy to see the hits or misses as the shooter engages . Even though the job of the RO on the timer is often described as watching the gun and nothing else doesn't mean we can't see anything else. I have ran several shooters who were transitioning to a target that had holes in it already and was able to discern their hits without question.

[Nik Habicht]

I don't recall anything in the rule book which provides guidance on RO's determination of what a shooter was doing during the run for scoring. Targets are scored at the target.

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We're expected to know when a shooter hit a plate stand, according to the rulebook.......

So it's a little more grey than you'd like to believe.....

[424D57]

I don't disagree that we have lots to observe besides blindly staring at the gun, nor that it can be easy to tell when a shooter obviously misses a target. None of that however is relevant to the paper target scoring procedure

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[Jake Di Vita]

I have seen shooters hesitate for a moment when they transition to a target with holes in it before they start going again. Could it not be considered that he didn't have the same conditions as the shooter before him and reshoot on those grounds?

[teros135]

I don't recall anything in the rule book which provides guidance on RO's determination of what a shooter was doing during the run for scoring. Targets are scored at the target.

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We're expected to know when a shooter hit a plate stand, according to the rulebook.......

So it's a little more grey than you'd like to believe.....

I must have missed that one. Where is it? (I searched the book for "stand" and couldn't find anything relating to watching the plate stand for hits.)

Actually, this is covered by painting the steel. If there's a distinct steel hit, it'll show up, right there on the plate. I don't think we're actually supposed to be watching the steel for hits while the shooter is shooting. Scored at the target, as usual.

[motosapiens]

I have seen shooters hesitate for a moment when they transition to a target with holes in it before they start going again. Could it not be considered that he didn't have the same conditions as the shooter before him and reshoot on those grounds?

that's what people argue, but the rules very specifically state otherwise don't really allow for that. that's why when I see unpasted holes I just keep shooting. I agree it would be disconcerting on a stage where a target is available from multiple positions. bottom line is that it's a good idea for an RO team to have a routine to check every target before the next shooter gets make ready. at a major, it's pretty easy to do. less so at a local match with embedded RO's.

edited and corrected.

Edited June 17, 2016 by motosapiens