is there calibration for a popper that activates a prop?

[Sarge]

Florida Open, a shooter double taps an activator 2 times, he moves on, we didn't stop him.

He said he wanted a calibration challenge, we let him know it was a forward falling activator, the RM shot it and it fell.

He got

1 Mike on Steel

1 FTSA

2 Mikes on the swinger.

sounds about right, but.......... it seems to me a properly set forward falling popper should eventually fall no matter how many times you shoot it. It should just take longer.

That's why I like the ones with the little tab that drops down out of the way when you hit the steel.

[motosapiens]

Florida Open, a shooter double taps an activator 2 times, he moves on, we didn't stop him.

He said he wanted a calibration challenge, we let him know it was a forward falling activator, the RM shot it and it fell.

He got

1 Mike on Steel

1 FTSA

2 Mikes on the swinger.

sounds about right, but.......... it seems to me a properly set forward falling popper should eventually fall no matter how many times you shoot it. It should just take longer.

That's why I like the ones with the little tab that drops down out of the way when you hit the steel.

that's what I was talking about. Is there another kind? even with the tab, if you adjust it so it can go up past vertical, it's conceivable you might be able to shoot it so that it would stay up even after the tab dropped, which would be lame. I try to make sure that the adjusting screw is set so there is no way the popper can stay upright once the tab has dropped.

the other problem you may run into at a big match is a bunch of brand new poppers that weren't all carefully adjusted. On some of them the tabs were allowed to come up way too high, so sometimes the first shot allowed the tab to drop part way, but not enough to release the popper. I fixed the ones on my stage when we were proofing the stage before the staff match, but I understand not all of them received such careful attention.

[bret]

Florida Open, a shooter double taps an activator 2 times, he moves on, we didn't stop him.

He said he wanted a calibration challenge, we let him know it was a forward falling activator, the RM shot it and it fell.

He got

1 Mike on Steel

1 FTSA

2 Mikes on the swinger.

sounds about right, but.......... it seems to me a properly set forward falling popper should eventually fall no matter how many times you shoot it. It should just take longer.

That's why I like the ones with the little tab that drops down out of the way when you hit the steel.

A quick double taps stands it back up, they don't fall from what I have seen.

I think the course designer throws these in once in awhile to keep a shooter on their toes and pay attention.

A lot of open guys double tap activators to drive them down, sometimes I double tap them too, to speed them up.

[motosapiens]

Florida Open, a shooter double taps an activator 2 times, he moves on, we didn't stop him.

He said he wanted a calibration challenge, we let him know it was a forward falling activator, the RM shot it and it fell.

He got

1 Mike on Steel

1 FTSA

2 Mikes on the swinger.

sounds about right, but.......... it seems to me a properly set forward falling popper should eventually fall no matter how many times you shoot it. It should just take longer.

That's why I like the ones with the little tab that drops down out of the way when you hit the steel.

A quick double taps stands it back up, they don't fall from what I have seen.

I haven't seen a sort of forward faller that would do that unless it was seriously maladjusted, but it seems like I see another different popper variation at every major match.

[bret]

It fell when shot one time with sub minor 9mm ammo, when the RM shot it.

[SCTaylor]

Had a forward faller not fall for myself and one other shooter last match. Turned out when someone reset the popper (once was me) putting the rear tab up too high it would not fall.

Edited June 6, 2016 by SCTaylor

[motosapiens]

It fell when shot one time with sub minor 9mm ammo, when the RM shot it.

i seem to recall you posting that. but I still think it shouldn't be possible to drive a popper back up if it is of sound design and properly adjusted.

[bret]

It fell when shot one time with sub minor 9mm ammo, when the RM shot it.

i seem to recall you posting that. but I still think it shouldn't be possible to drive a popper back up if it is of sound design and properly adjusted.

M class production shooter double tapped it 2 times, very quickly.

It never fell.

RM shot it with sub minor calibration ammo and it fell.

Everyone else on the squad shot it and it fell.

How can it be improperly set or a bad design?

This is one reason why it's important to know if there is forward falling steel and where.

[motosapiens]

It fell when shot one time with sub minor 9mm ammo, when the RM shot it.

i seem to recall you posting that. but I still think it shouldn't be possible to drive a popper back up if it is of sound design and properly adjusted.

M class production shooter double tapped it 2 times, very quickly.

It never fell.

RM shot it with sub minor calibration ammo and it fell.

Everyone else on the squad shot it and it fell.

How can it be improperly set or a bad design?

This is one reason why it's important to know if there is forward falling steel and where.

If it's possible for a popper to be driven back up, then imho it's a bad design or set improperly.

It still is important to know what poppers are forward fallers.

[ChuckS]

It still is important to know what poppers are forward fallers.

True! At the WSSSC one year, I put a 3 shot group right in the middle of the lollypop and the damn thing just stayed up. The laughing from behind made me realize what I was doing. I guess they could of gotten procedurals for coaching but it would of had to be for the whole squad

As moto says, "t still is important"

[teros135]

It fell when shot one time with sub minor 9mm ammo, when the RM shot it.

i seem to recall you posting that. but I still think it shouldn't be possible to drive a popper back up if it is of sound design and properly adjusted.

M class production shooter double tapped it 2 times, very quickly.

It never fell.

RM shot it with sub minor calibration ammo and it fell.

Everyone else on the squad shot it and it fell.

How can it be improperly set or a bad design?

This is one reason why it's important to know if there is forward falling steel and where.

If it's possible for a popper to be driven back up, then imho it's a bad design or set improperly.

It still is important to know what poppers are forward fallers.

I've seen people hold a FFP up by continuously shooting at it, but they fell when the shooting stopped.

That's the fun in FFPs, got to handle them right (one solid shot, let it go down). The vexing part is that they take longer to LOOK like they're falling, so we want to hit them again.

[d_striker]

Since the RO stopped the shooter, it's a reshoot.

Don't count on that happening at a major match though and be prepared for what the proper protocol is. If I was a newish shooter, I'd rather learn this lesson at a club match than a major that I traveled to.

[d_striker]

Florida Open, a shooter double taps an activator 2 times, he moves on, we didn't stop him.

He said he wanted a calibration challenge, we let him know it was a forward falling activator, the RM shot it and it fell.

He got

1 Mike on Steel

1 FTSA

2 Mikes on the swinger.

sounds about right, but.......... it seems to me a properly set forward falling popper should eventually fall no matter how many times you shoot it. It should just take longer.

That's why I like the ones with the little tab that drops down out of the way when you hit the steel.

that's what I was talking about. Is there another kind? even with the tab, if you adjust it so it can go up past vertical, it's conceivable you might be able to shoot it so that it would stay up even after the tab dropped, which would be lame. I try to make sure that the adjusting screw is set so there is no way the popper can stay upright once the tab has dropped.

the other problem you may run into at a big match is a bunch of brand new poppers that weren't all carefully adjusted. On some of them the tabs were allowed to come up way too high, so sometimes the first shot allowed the tab to drop part way, but not enough to release the popper. I fixed the ones on my stage when we were proofing the stage before the staff match, but I understand not all of them received such careful attention.

A lot of the clubs around here use forward falling poppers that use a bar that holds the popper up. There is a bolt at the end of the bar and a bolt on the popper. When the popper is properly set and struck, the bar is supposed to drop down and allow the popper to fall.

I've only seen this happen a couple times but if it's not set properly, the bar can move above the popper bolt and come to rest on the popper itself. Personally, I would consider this a range equipment failure in this specific instance.

Edited June 6, 2016 by d_striker

[Sarge]

Florida Open, a shooter double taps an activator 2 times, he moves on, we didn't stop him.

He said he wanted a calibration challenge, we let him know it was a forward falling activator, the RM shot it and it fell.

He got

1 Mike on Steel

1 FTSA

2 Mikes on the swinger.

sounds about right, but.......... it seems to me a properly set forward falling popper should eventually fall no matter how many times you shoot it. It should just take longer.

That's why I like the ones with the little tab that drops down out of the way when you hit the steel.

A quick double taps stands it back up, they don't fall from what I have seen.

I think the course designer throws these in once in awhile to keep a shooter on their toes and pay attention.

A lot of open guys double tap activators to drive them down, sometimes I double tap them too, to speed them up.

the ones I talk about have two tabs. The rear tab does not move and is adjusted so the target is nowhere near vertical when touching it. The front tab is loose and just swivels down . When the target gets reset the front tab is held up by hand and the target leans forward on it. When the target gets shot the tab drops and there is no way the target will not fall unless something is broken or seriously out of adjustment, or not set right

[bret]

The forward falling ones I see mostly are 2 piece,they have a separate base, they have either a forward or reward falling base.

There is an adjustment bolt on the base the popper leans against, very simple design, works very well.

The less complicated it is the less chance there is for a problem.

[LilBunniFuFu]

Jesus, the amount of confusion on the rules in this thread is astounding

First rule of funky calls. "Show me" Would solve many of these types of problems and questions.

[LilBunniFuFu]

It fell when shot one time with sub minor 9mm ammo, when the RM shot it.

i seem to recall you posting that. but I still think it shouldn't be possible to drive a popper back up if it is of sound design and properly adjusted.

I believe the popper in question was a forward falling steel that has a rear flange that rests on a spring. Shoot it once and the spring compresses, releases and the popper will fall forward. They are the older forward falling poppers in use at USA.

[motosapiens]

It fell when shot one time with sub minor 9mm ammo, when the RM shot it.

i seem to recall you posting that. but I still think it shouldn't be possible to drive a popper back up if it is of sound design and properly adjusted.

I believe the popper in question was a forward falling steel that has a rear flange that rests on a spring. Shoot it once and the spring compresses, releases and the popper will fall forward. They are the older forward falling poppers in use at USA.

thanks for the explanation. I don't think I've ever seen one of those out west. It does sound fairly simple, but also (like the non-legal spinner targets) seems like it offers the possibility of some bogus behavior. I suppose it's no worse than the occasional bogus behavior seen from other poppers tho. all part of the fun.

[bret]

It fell when shot one time with sub minor 9mm ammo, when the RM shot it.

i seem to recall you posting that. but I still think it shouldn't be possible to drive a popper back up if it is of sound design and properly adjusted.

I believe the popper in question was a forward falling steel that has a rear flange that rests on a spring. Shoot it once and the spring compresses, releases and the popper will fall forward. They are the older forward falling poppers in use at USA.

thanks for the explanation. I don't think I've ever seen one of those out west. It does sound fairly simple, but also (like the non-legal spinner targets) seems like it offers the possibility of some bogus behavior. I suppose it's no worse than the occasional bogus behavior seen from other poppers tho. all part of the fun.

They were used at the World Shooters 2014, IPSC, Limited and L10/Open Nationals last year.

I am sure if they weren't legal DNROI, the RMI's, RM's and others would have noticed they were illegal.

I have not seen one fail a calibration

Challenge.

[motosapiens]

didn't say they weren't legal, just that they sound lame. but after hearing more elaboration it sounds like they are just something a bit different than we normally see out here, and shooters in your area are used to.

[bret]

They are very simple and work very well.

[motosapiens]

They are very simple and work very well.

except when they screw over a shooter.

[Flexmoney]

Oh...they used it at a big match so it must be legal argument?

Um...no.


4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to
score. Scoring poppers which fail to fall when hit are subject to
the provisions of Appendix C1, 6 & 7. Scoring metal targets
which a Range Officer deems to have fallen or overturned due
to a shot on the supporting apparatus or prematurely fallen or
moved for any reason will be treated as range equipment
failure. (See Rule 4.6.1). All Poppers shall follow the
guidelines below:

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all
competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of
paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the
failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of
mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of
props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

A popper that resets itself when properly hit... that is a failure of that prop.

Simple.

[teros135]

If it doesn't fall when hit with minor PF ammo (at least), it's not legal and is a REF - so calibrate (or reshoot if the thing doesn't fall after several calibration-zone hits).

That's not to say you can't keep pushing a forward-falling popper back against the stop by shooting at it repeatedly, but once you stop shooting it will/should fall. Not a REF, more a brain failure - "oops, I forgot it's a FFP".

[bret]

Oh...they used it at a big match so it must be legal argument?

Um...no.

4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to

score. Scoring poppers which fail to fall when hit are subject to

the provisions of Appendix C1, 6 & 7. Scoring metal targets

which a Range Officer deems to have fallen or overturned due

to a shot on the supporting apparatus or prematurely fallen or

moved for any reason will be treated as range equipment

failure. (See Rule 4.6.1). All Poppers shall follow the

guidelines below:

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all

competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of

paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the

failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of

mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of

props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

A popper that resets itself when properly hit... that is a failure of that prop.

Simple.

It never failed a calibration challenge when shot 1 time with sub minor calibration ammo.

If there was a problem with them, they would not be used at matches, especially big matches.

DNROI was the RM, if there was a problem I think he would have caught it.

Since they fell when shot one time, they work properly.

On these if you double taps them quickly, they don't always fall, because the 2nd shot stood it back up because it stopped the forward momentum, it's physics, not a prop failure, or REF.