Lower PF for Major in IPSC Rifle?

[perttime]

http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=20289&page=4

There's a proposal to lower Major PF from 320 to 280 in IPSC Rifle. At least one justification is that some are already making 320 with the .300 BLK case, but they have to push it a bit to get there.

Sounds a bit like the story of 9 mm Major in Pistol.

Any thoughts?

[PatJones]

Wouldn't you get more rifle folks involved if you posted this to the multi-gun forum?

[RJH]

Sounds like a good reason to raise the power factor for major

[bret]

How do you figure power factor in a rifle?

[ChuckS]

How do you figure power factor in a rifle?

bullet weight in grains times bullet velocity divided by 1000

[bret]

How do you figure power factor in a rifle?

bullet weight in grains times bullet velocity divided by 1000

I guess a .223 has the same power factor or lower than my .40 S&W loads.

[jrswanson1]

How do you figure power factor in a rifle?

bullet weight in grains times bullet velocity divided by 1000

I guess a .223 has the same power factor or lower than my .40 S&W loads.

It's not nicknamed "Poodle Shooter" for nothing.

[ChuckS]

How do you figure power factor in a rifle?

bullet weight in grains times bullet velocity divided by 1000

I guess a .223 has the same power factor or lower than my .40 S&W loads.

Hence the popularity of time plus scoring in USPSA 3G.

Now back to the thread:

http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=20289&page=4

There's a proposal to lower Major PF from 320 to 280 in IPSC Rifle. At least one justification is that some are already making 320 with the .300 BLK case, but they have to push it a bit to get there.

Sounds a bit like the story of 9 mm Major in Pistol.

Any thoughts?

HF scoring is just not popular here in USPSA rifle. The Time Plus option is generally the default scoring method.

Edited May 23, 2016 by ChuckS

[perttime]

What is "The Time Plus option" and what does it have to do with Power Factor?

[bret]

What is "The Time Plus option" and what does it have to do with Power Factor?

Inside USPSA Multigun, it's time plus.

There is No Major or Minor power factor for scoring.

1 Alpha or 2 hits anywhere neutralize the target.

FTE + 15

Mike + 10

fTN + 5

Steel must fall to score.

Some Long range targets have increased penalties.

[LilBunniFuFu]

What is "The Time Plus option" and what does it have to do with Power Factor?

Multigun is already tough enough to run as it is. Time or Time+ helps cut the reset of a stage immensely. So HF scoring usually goes out the window.

[perttime]

I thought USPSA also did Rifle matches???

Or is it always Multigun if you also want rifle games in USA?

[bret]

I thought USPSA also did Rifle matches???

Or is it always Multigun if you also want rifle games in USA?

USPSA does Multigun, but they treat it like a redheaded step child.

[PatriotMRD]

I thought USPSA also did Rifle matches???

Or is it always Multigun if you also want rifle games in USA?

USPSA does Multigun, but they treat it like a redheaded step child.

Rifle, shotgun and Multi-Gun are all run under the same rulebook.

And, yes, it is treated like the redheaded, bastard, stepchild.

[perttime]

Things get complicated with multiple guns.

With just the rifle, it is much more like the Pistol game, with some longer distances thrown in.

Edited May 24, 2016 by perttime

[jrswanson1]

I thought USPSA also did Rifle matches???

Or is it always Multigun if you also want rifle games in USA?

USPSA does Multigun, but they treat it like a redheaded step child.

After reading the thread on long gun handling at the Multigun National, I agree.

[perttime]

This one? http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=232375

Wow...

Maybe the mandatory safety training that our IPSC Region requires isn't such a bad idea.

[jrswanson1]

This one? http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=232375

Wow...

Maybe the mandatory safety training that our IPSC Region requires isn't such a bad idea.

That's the one. I've never seen that at a local 3-gun match, as we use the berms at every bay as a safe area, versus one or two safe areas that USPSA typically uses.

[bret]

This one? http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=232375

Wow...

Maybe the mandatory safety training that our IPSC Region requires isn't such a bad idea.

People that are very cautious about sweeping someone with a pistol seem to be careless about it with long guns.

They get away with it at local matches and if called on it at big matches say, we always did it like this or, it's unloaded.

I don't like seeing the crowd swept or getting guns pointed at me.

The clubs at the local level need to be on top of it.

[perttime]

Right. Safe practices need to be adhered to at every level.

I know that people have been DQd in my area for sweeping their own hand while pulling a rifle or shotgun from a gun slip - and for bending over to pick up something from the ground, on the way to the Safety area with a slung rifle.

[ac4wordplay]

This one? http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=232375

Wow...

Maybe the mandatory safety training that our IPSC Region requires isn't such a bad idea.

People that are very cautious about sweeping someone with a pistol seem to be careless about it with long guns.

They get away with it at local matches and if called on it at big matches say, we always did it like this or, it's unloaded.

I don't like seeing the crowd swept or getting guns pointed at me.

The clubs at the local level need to be on top of it.

DNROI took the position (here: http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1644-multigun-rules/) that no USPS MG rule was violated and that no unsafe gun handling had occurred. Two other RMI have also taken that position (one by statement, one by action). Top people in the USPSA org seem to think that pointing rifles/shotguns at staff/competitors/spectators isn't unacceptable/unsafe and isn't a violation of existing USPSA MG rules 2.5.2.1 (2.5.2 violations are subject to match disqualification"), or 10.5.

As it's not a violation of USPSA rules (according to DNROI), then do "clubs at the local level need to be on top of it"?

Edited May 25, 2016 by ac4wordplay

[bret]

This one? http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=232375

Wow...

Maybe the mandatory safety training that our IPSC Region requires isn't such a bad idea.

People that are very cautious about sweeping someone with a pistol seem to be careless about it with long guns.

They get away with it at local matches and if called on it at big matches say, we always did it like this or, it's unloaded.

I don't like seeing the crowd swept or getting guns pointed at me.

The clubs at the local level need to be on top of it.

DNROI took the position (here: http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1644-multigun-rules/)that no USPS MG rule was violated and that no unsafe gun handling had occurred. Two other RMI have also taken that position (one by statement, one by action). Top people in the USPSA org seem to think that pointing rifles/shotguns at staff/competitors/spectators isn't unacceptable/unsafe and isn't a violation of existing USPSA MG rules 2.5.2.1 (2.5.2 violations are subject to match disqualification"), or 10.5.

As it's not a violation of USPSA rules (according to DNROI), then do "clubs at local level need to be on top of it"?

I don't see where DNROI said it's not a violation.

[ac4wordplay]

This one? http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=232375

Wow...

Maybe the mandatory safety training that our IPSC Region requires isn't such a bad idea.

People that are very cautious about sweeping someone with a pistol seem to be careless about it with long guns.

They get away with it at local matches and if called on it at big matches say, we always did it like this or, it's unloaded.

I don't like seeing the crowd swept or getting guns pointed at me.

The clubs at the local level need to be on top of it.

DNROI took the position (here: http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1644-multigun-rules/)that no USPS MG rule was violated and that no unsafe gun handling had occurred. Two other RMI have also taken that position (one by statement, one by action). Top people in the USPSA org seem to think that pointing rifles/shotguns at staff/competitors/spectators isn't unacceptable/unsafe and isn't a violation of existing USPSA MG rules 2.5.2.1 (2.5.2 violations are subject to match disqualification"), or 10.5.

As it's not a violation of USPSA rules (according to DNROI), then do "clubs at local level need to be on top of it"?

I don't see where DNROI said it's not a violation.

Brett,

I've asked about this in two threads (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=232375, and http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1644-multigun-rules/), and DNROI has commented in both but hasn't directly answered the questions that I've asked. His comments have included (and been consistent in both threads) this:

"The present USPSA MG rules do not cover this situation completely, but we are working on making sure we have rules in place to cover this. Chamber flagged long guns are generally considered safe to transport and handle, but muzzle direction upon bagging/unbagging is not directly addressed."

That is not a statement that the events described (the events that started the threads) were a violation of USPSA MG rules. If DNROI considered the events to be a violation of USPSA MG rules, then a statement clearly articulating that, and explaining the rules, should have been made, so that competitors and ROs can conduct themselves appropriately. DNROI's statement, and the RM's action at the match that started the threads, both indicate that no violation occurred in their minds.

If you can point me to anything that I may have overlooked which indicates that DNROI found the events (that started the threads) to be violations of current (2014) USPSA MG rules, I'd appreciate it - it may help my understanding of the situation.

In the Enos thread, MarkCo posted (post #32) this:

"USPSA MG Rules, 2014, Rule 1.1 makes what occurred wrong and frankly, when Troy responded to my inquiry, I was so angry with his response I had to let it sit. This is part of what I sent him. Contact your ADs and let's get this fixed.

The 4 laws of gun safety are universally used and there is NO excuse for ignoring such. The rules need to be followed, and they were not."