All competition shooters, front cocking serrations: Yes or NO?

[Distant Thunder]

I started racking the slide by clenching it between my butt cheeks. That way if a primer hits the ejector and goes off I take the hit and everyone else is safe from shrapnel.

Love it!

There are downsides however. I had to checker the whole slide, which can be painful. Also really hot days can render this technique very difficult.

In this situation I'd say chaffing would be the least of your worries.

[Nugget]

Ewwwww! Try that with a slide racker!

Edited May 28, 2016 by Nugget

[ricardo28]

My hand is no closer to the chamber when open than using the rear. I don't cover the port when open either. My hand is to the left side with my thumb over the top, never exposed to the open port more than using the rear.

Still scratching my head on this one. Does this make sense to anyone else? Maybe a picture would help.

By the numbers in the poll I would be willing to bet many agree with me. I will get pictures. Edited May 28, 2016 by ricardo28

[Distant Thunder]

Ewwwww! Try that with a slide racker!

Now add a thumb rest, lay-down C-More mount and a nice piping hot comp to top it all off. Yes, I know. We are truly a litter of very sick puppies.

[Edge40]

I like to have them but pretty much only use them for press checks.

[motosapiens]

Which is why I use the pinch method where the hand is above and to the rear of the slide grasping it with the index finger and thumb. Even if an accidental discharge occurs (so long as the gun is pointing in a safe direction), there's no blood or body parts on the ground. You may color code your underwear (yellow in front, brown in back), but you go home with a fully functioning hand and all your fingers.

what are you talking about. if you have an AD while using front cocking serrations, your hand is still not in front of the barrel. if it were in front of the barrel it would be a dq.

by using the front cocking serrations i get maximum grip and leverage (maximum safety), and my hand is clear of the ejection port and the front of the barrel, and I don't cut my thumb on the rear sight. It's pretty much perfect.

Edited June 6, 2016 by motosapiens

[ricardo28]

let me know if the pictures don't work. If they do, as you can see, my hand follows the trigger guard up and i wrap the FCS thumb over. I never flag my hand and my hand is not covering the ejection port. If you believe this is too close to the ejection port, your just being ignorant as using the rears is actually closer to it especially if you cup the rears.

Edited June 7, 2016 by ricardo28

[ricardo28]

A picture of the guns with FCS just because i love them....

Edited June 7, 2016 by ricardo28

[Distant Thunder]

Moto, I was responding to ricardo's post where he, rightly, pointed out the danger of racking the slide overhand from the rear with the hand covering the ejection port. Probably should have included case rupture with AD. We're just as exposed to danger when practicing as in a match, so the DQ would be the least of my worries.

Ricardo, the pictures do show a firm grasp on the FCS, but (as I feared) they also show the exposure of the base of the hand and wrist to the ejection port in case of a round going off while chambering/ejecting. The hand/fingers don't have to be covering the port to be in danger. Remember, we're dealing with ammunition that ignites with thousands of pounds of pressure per square inch which, when not covered by the barrel, can turn into a small grenade. Lock back the slide and insert a magazine with a dummy round then it's easier to see the area of exposure should a round accidentally erupt.

[motosapiens]

Moto, I was responding to ricardo's post where he, rightly, pointed out the danger of racking the slide overhand from the rear with the hand covering the ejection port.

got it. i misunderstood. I generally don't like the idea of covering the ejection port, which is one of the reasons i like FCS.

fwiw, I think you may be overestimating the danger from a detonation. without the barrel to contain and direct the pressure, it dissipates pretty quickly. imho it is nothing like a grenade (which is specifically designed to let that pressure build to explosive level. still can put some pieces of brass in your hand tho.

[Distant Thunder]

We had an incident at our club where a round went off in an open ejection port and the results weren't pretty.

Tony, as formidable a barrier as your butt cheeks may be, were I to let you rack the slide for me at a match I'd probably be wearing gloves until I could get the gun disinfected.

[ricardo28]

Distant Thunder, I assure you, my hand is in no more danger than using the rears. If that picture makes you worry, I think your holding onto your bias. My hand never covered the port, and my wrist is off to the side of the gun, not covering the port at all. If i took a photo from directly above, it would show the thumb palm pad directly above that port corner, not over it. I do tilt the gun when racking just like the picture. My hand is completely in front of the port. As you can see in this picture, there is no difference. I would even venture to say by using the rears, your MORE exposed to shrapnel because of the directed pressure. In this picture, i grabbed it in a practical way. I tried to get back as far as i could but that would not be realistic in a match and is very awkward to grasp so far back.

Edited June 7, 2016 by ricardo28

[ricardo28]

We had an incident at our club where a round went off in an open ejection port and the results weren't pretty.

Tony, as formidable a barrier as your butt cheeks may be, were I to let you rack the slide for me at a match I'd probably be wearing gloves until I could get the gun disinfected.

Typically when that happens, there are more issues than using FCS. More often than not, the person don't know how to reload properly or does work on their gun when they should not be. Even gun handling safety issues beyond racking.

Edited June 7, 2016 by ricardo28

[jdublineman]

let me know if the pictures don't work. If they do, as you can see, my hand follows the trigger guard up and i wrap the FCS thumb over. I never flag my hand and my hand is not covering the ejection port. If you believe this is too close to the ejection port, your just being ignorant as using the rears is actually closer to it especially if you cup the rears.

This right here is a good example of using front serrations. I like my pistols to have them as well.

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[motosapiens]

We had an incident at our club where a round went off in an open ejection port and the results weren't pretty.

no one said they would be pretty. How many fingers did the person lose? or was the entire hand gone? if not, we should be able to agree that a detonation is nothing like a grenade.

Edited June 8, 2016 by motosapiens

[Distant Thunder]

Moto, the small/miniature grenade reference is not my invention. It is an example that has been used by civilian, law enforcement and (recalling my time in basic training) military trainers. I hope your post was made in jest and that you are in no way inferring that just because no fingers or hand was lost in the described incident that this was not a big deal. Ask any healthcare professional about the physical and emotional trauma (including shock, which can be deadly in itself) resulting from a firearm inflicted wound and they will tell you it is indeed a huge deal.

Ricardo, I guess they only thing we can agree on is that I am holding onto my bias for the pinch/slingshot method. But, it's a bias based on anatomy, physiology and kinesiology. Clinging to the notion that your hand position is safe so long as you're not directly covering the ejection port is just whistling through the graveyard (yeah, I'm from Appalachia). In addition to the vascular and neurological exposure you have, the musculoskeletal targets can be shown by a simple exercise. Lay your left hand flat on a table with the palm up. Now lay your right index finger across your wrist just below the base of your hand. Now wiggle your fingers of the left hand. All those connections are exposed using your own pictures as evidence. And trying to tell us we're not seeing what we're seeing in the pictures makes me hearken back to the Wizard of Oz telling Dorothy and company to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain (Actually, that's rather the tactic used by the current administration in defense of the stimulus bill, Obamacare, the VA, the IRS, the Dept. of Justice, the State Dept. ...). You shot yourself in the foot (pun intended) the moment you posted those pictures insofar as your claims of the overhand use of the FCS being as safe as the pinch/slingshot method. The only method I've seen that's as safe (actually safer) as the pinch/slingshot maneuver is to use a slide racker ... Tony's butt cheeks notwithstanding.

Am I going to change anybody's mind on this? Probably not. Human nature is human nature and people are going to do what they want to do. But, for those who are on the fence they'll at least have more than an opinion poll to base their decision on.

[ricardo28]

I understand the wrist is more sensitive that the knuckle or top of the hand. However, your not mentioning the path taken by the shrapnel. It will likely go back and up, not forward. But it is possible. What's more possible, incompetent humans loading, gunsmithing, finger on trigger while racking and a bunch of other idiotic errors.

Many LEO and Military trainers teach the rear serrations cup, I was taught in both the military and as a new LEO.

I'm interested in the real cause of your fellow shooters real issue. I'm positive it didn't happen because he used my FCS demo.

PTSD, shock, emotional trauma? Those people should be sitting home, bottom line.

I agree a slide racket is the safest but I also think we're disagreeing about something that statistically, is 100x safer than driving. So should we not drive to a match because of those odds?

Edited June 8, 2016 by ricardo28

[motosapiens]

Moto, the small/miniature grenade reference is not my invention. It is an example that has been used by civilian, law enforcement and (recalling my time in basic training) military trainers. I hope your post was made in jest and that you are in no way inferring that just because no fingers or hand was lost in the described incident that this was not a big deal. Ask any healthcare professional about the physical and emotional trauma (including shock, which can be deadly in itself) resulting from a firearm inflicted wound and they will tell you it is indeed a huge deal.

i didn't say it was a big deal, i said it was nothing like a grenade. I don't care if LE or military has used that example. It's inaccurate and misleading. Sadly, I am all too familiar with traumatic injuries from my motorcycle and bicycle racing days, and I have even been lucky enough to sever a finger tendon, so I know what a big deal hand injuries can be. But it's nothing like a grenade.

but we can agree that it's still a bad idea to cover the ejection port while racking the slide. group hug.

[Distant Thunder]

Ricardo, You can't seriously believe that people suffering from PTSD/shock/emotional trauma should just sit at home. Medical/psychological intervention can be a huge part of the process to returning these people to some semblance of a functional life. Just telling them to sit at home is possibly the worst thing we could do for them. We can agree to agree and/or disagree on many things, but I sincerely hope you'll retract that statement.

[ricardo28]

People who are affected by a gun discharging the way you described should. I'm a vet and have numerous friends who spent weeks-months unconscious, one has 3 Purple Hearts and they are not traumatized by much. Someone who suffers from mental Trauma by a gun discharging the way we're talking here, has no business handling guns.

Edited June 9, 2016 by ricardo28

[Jimboslice]

+1 on FCSs I like the way they look on some guns but mainly use them for press checks. In the heat of the moment I still go to the rear to jams and to unload.

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[twodownzero]

As much as I'd like to be a purist, they work to well not to have them, so I have them on all of my full size 19/2011s