Accuracy - What would you do?

[B585]

I know it seems that way, and I was concerned that people would get that impression. However, in a previous trip the range with this gun using the factory barrel, it was also up and down. It is just random... roll a die 10 times and you might get all 1's or all evens or all 4's and 5's or whatever. I think in these two groups, the dispersion was really left-right. In others on the previous trip, not so much.

I did check for slop. While it was nowhere near like with the Apex barrel, the factory barrel locks up okay. There is minimal wiggle front / back / side. That's what makes me think it has more to do with "early unlocking" and other factors rather than just sloppy fit at lockup.

One other thing that I noticed is that, not only does the barrel drop very quickly, it seems like there is a fair amount of distance that the slide can move out of battery and still have the trigger release the striker. That is kind of unnerving. Perhaps the barrel drops enough to move the primer out of the way of the firing pin hole... who knows. With the way the Apex barrel keeps everything in line and moves back with the slide for MUCH longer than the OEM barrel, this seems like far, far less of a potential problem.

[quote name="TacticalReload" post="2583142" timestamp="1459989561"

One other thing that I noticed is that, not only does the barrel drop very quickly, it seems like there is a fair amount of distance that the slide can move out of battery and still have the trigger release the striker. That is kind of unnerving. Perhaps the barrel drops enough to move the primer out of the way of the firing pin hole... who knows. With the way the Apex barrel keeps everything in line and moves back with the slide for MUCH longer than the OEM barrel, this seems like far, far less of a potential problem.

I hadn't picked up earlier that the apex barrel was not just an oversized copy but a different design. Perhaps not drastically so, but if the apex holds in battery longer then that seems to be part of the solution.

I think you have a good point. The follow up video said it fired out of battery which was blamed on the ammo....

http://youtu.be/PJg4hjqPlQs

[Randy Lee]

Hi Randy, as long as you are monitoring this thread could you recommend the cut and grit for the pillar file and ez lap you talk about in your install video?

Thanks!

My preference is a fine swiss pattern like #2 or higher. That tends to reduce the amount of material that I remove and leaves a cleaner surface for cleanup. The EZ laps I have are the Med, Fine and X-Fine set that I purchased on Amazon. I tend to use the Med. the most on the barrels.

[chuckstur]

Great back-to-back comparison. This should put the issue to rest. If you come through Nashville TN I have a fixture that clamps the barrel to 300 pounds of concrete and we can see if it is the lockup or barrel proper.

[Randy Lee]

Factory barrels usually don't show a lot of play when the slide is in battery, as the recoil spring drives the slide forward, and the barrel hood contact pushes the barrel against the takedown lever. The ramped surface of the barrel stop contacting the takedown lever is what usually causes the perception of a tight lock up. But when you pull the slide back by a few thousandths, that is when the ramped surface is no longer bearing the same amount of upward force of the barrel into the slide. If you pull the slide back by about .010" and hold it there, then wiggle the muzzle and the barrel hood, most pistols will exhibit a noticeable amount of play. This is what I have found to cause the most erratic dispersion on a target.

[dirty whiteboy]

https://www.apextactical.com/blog/index.php/apex-news/accuracy-is-coming-apex-announces-9mm-barrels-for-smith-wesson-mp-pistols/

agree, seems to be the fix

[rhowell309]

Nicholson 40088N is a narrow pillar #2

[rhowell309]

I spent some time at the range yesterday. My primary goal was testing an APEX SDI barrel in my 5” M&P Pro.

All shots were from a recently purchased Ransom Rest. We are still bonding but I think I was able to get some representative results out of it. Distance was 25 Yards at an outdoor range. It was windy, but the berms cut a lot of it. Most of the wind was at my back.

Ammo. 1) CCI/SPEER Blazer Brass 115gr from a purchase last week from a high volume online seller. All was from the same lot. Actually all was from the same 350rd box. 2) Ammo I reloaded on a Dillon 650. Once fired Blazer Brass, CCI 500 Primers, Montana Gold 124 JHP, 3.8 TiteGroup, loaded to 1.060”.
Previous Chrono Results (using mixed headstamped cases) Shots: 10 Max : 1065 Min : 1040 ES : 25 Avg : 1049 SD : 8. I have loaded over 5K of this combination and successfully used it in 10 various M&P 9mms, 2 P320s, VP9, PPQ, and a G19.

I shot about 150 rounds through this gun in the rest and have 11 targets that I shot 10 rounds each in.

1) Primary test gun 5” M&P Pro 9 with stock and APEX barrels. This gun has a 4-5000 rounds fired through it. I’d guess 200-250 through the APEX barrel.

Additionally I ran subsequent tests on:

2) 5” M&P 9L Stock barrel estimated 500-1000 rounds

3) 5” M&P Pro 40 with a Storm Lake 9mm conversion barrel
4) 4.25” M&P Pro 9 estimated 2000 rounds.
5) 4.25” M&P Pro 9 estimated 1000 rounds.
6) 4.25” M&P Performance Center CORE 40 with Threaded Storm Lake Barrel (5”)

Observations

The APEX SDI made an obvious difference in the groups. The groups were about 1/3 vertically and 1/2 horizontally compared to the stock barrel.

All of the guns and barrels favored my reloads with the exception of the Apex where both types of ammo performed similarly.

The Apex barrel grouped both loads around 2-1/8”.

In other guns with stock barrels I saw 4-7” groups with my reloads.
One StormLake barrel performed respectfully with a 3” group with the reloads but it opened up with the Blazer Brass.
The other StormLake Barrel had a 8” group with the reloads. Scratch on flyer and it was a 5” group. Again it opened up with the Blazer Brass.

There were not any instances where a group was larger than 8”. I keep hearing of guns that have a hard time hitting a 12” target at 25’. Maybe I’m lucky, but I have a variety of models and production years and I’m not seeing those problems.

It is not all good however. I cannot make gun 1 reliably feed with the APEX barrel. With the Blazer Brass it will not fully chamber every 3-4 rounds. With the reloads it is more like ever 1-2 rounds. Again these reload have fed 100% in everything else I own. It seems to be the angle binding it up as the case rim slides into the extractor slot. I’ve had a handful FTF w/light primer strikes that were offset slightly. BUT, with the rest, there were no feed issues with 60 or so rounds through the APEX barrel. I received this barrel the first of February directly from APEX. It does not have the most recent changes. I fit it as per the instructions. I had feed issue from the start. Thinking I still had it too tight, I removed a bit more material from the lower pad. It went from taking a few pounds of pressure to bring it into battery, to sliding into battery itself very slowly. It would take 4-5 seconds to pull itself into battery. After 250 or so rounds it does not hesitate now.

All in all I’m happy with the groups. Happy enough that it is going back to APEX and if we can determine the issue and get it to feed reliably, I’m going to pick up another 5” and a 4.25”.

Now….. if we can get them to make a conversion barrel. Come on guys, widen the hood up so I can get rid of these Storm Lake barrels!!!!

Here are the most representative targets comparing the APEX and Stock Barrels.

[Hi-Power Jack]

T10, with the stock barrel, and the 124 gr MG bullets looks like

a pretty nice group (on flyer).

Interesting that both barrels seem to be hitting same POI -

high right.

Thanks for sharing the results ...

[rhowell309]

Interesting that both barrels seem to be hitting same POI -

:

POI was essentially the same for both barrels. Great job on Randy and team with that.

I'd say the high and right was more of my not spending more time to align the sights. Once I locked the grip into the rest, I didn't move it for 150+ rounds.

Edited April 8, 2016 by rhowell309

[BrianKr]

Ordered my SDI barrel today. My gunsmith didn't seem to want to do the barrel install. Now if it had been a 1911 he'd have been all over it. :-)

I was going to post this as a separate post, but why? What follows is that post. The email stock tip was the catalyst for it.

Recently I've read about S&W's profits and I just got a "tip" in my inbox to buy S&W. They are making all sorts of $ and like many other manufacturers can sell everything that they make. As long as that is the case I don't expect anything to change in the manufacturing of M&Ps. Let me rephrase that. As long as they have people willing to keep their profits high with what they make they'll keep making substandard handguns. I have no problem with the handgun itself, just with the execution of it.

I paid extra and bought a ported Pro Shop CORE and didn't receive what I thought I should have for accuracy (but it fits my tiny hands and stubby fingers!) and I just bought an Apex barrel and tools from Brownells to make it right. I don't think that's what I thought I was buying from their Pro Shop. Maybe they need a S&W "Actual Pro Shop" model, or maybe there are counterfeit S&W M&Ps being smuggled in from China?

Edited April 8, 2016 by BrianKr

[B585]

Thank you very much for the detailed testing and report R309.

[TacticalReload]

Ordered my SDI barrel today. My gunsmith didn't seem to want to do the barrel install. Now if it had been a 1911 he'd have been all over it. :-)

He's probably afraid to mess with it since he hasn't done one before. If he has access to a milling machine, he'd be able to cut the bottom lug area square to fit. If he's the type to do everything by hand, you're better off with the SDI anyway.

[BrianKr]

Very perceptive! That was exactly what he told me; that he'd never done one before.

I'll go easy and slow with the file. I'll get it right even if it takes me hours. But I don't expect that it will. I want this to be done right. :-) Something S&W didn't do through their Pro Shop but I expected them to.

BTW, has anyone else found that the store at Apex to be 300 baud slow to exchange data? It took me over 20 minutes to order the barrel. I should have just ordered it from Brownells (after the fact). But I like to support the manufacturer directly when I can. I manufacture things myself and I appreciate the support from folks who order direct rather than from someone who buys at wholesale. So I tolerated the extremely slow to respond Apex store. No exaggeration, 20 minutes. I thought i was back to voice modem.

[MemphisMechanic]

Fit the front to back distance of the hood and the bottom lug VERY tightly.

When you finish fitting the barrel to the slide in 3 places, you'll be excited to slap the gun together... and you won't be able to. Panic for a moment, then begin filing the pad on he bottom of the barrel. You'll get it to the point where you need to beat the slide on with blows from your palm, and then with each test fitting it'll get easier. Don't go too far!

If you get it cycling as smoothly as the factory barrel did instead of requiring a smack from the heel of the Palm (or full force of the recoil spring) ... then after 100 round it'll have some play in it. Go for an overly tight gun.

Side to side on the hood mine had slop already, and Randy says it's the least critical dimension in the video. And of course you don't want the muzzle end binding up when the barrel tilts - but most of them (including mine) drop into the muzzle of the slide as delivered.

Edited April 9, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[BrianKr]

Thanks MM!

[TacticalReload]

Quick update.

Having felt quite comfortable with the Apex barrel solution, I picked up a VTAC (a model that I've had my eyes on for literally years). I took it to the range today. I would describe the accuracy is mediocre but marginally acceptable... probably half the size of the groups that I was getting with my other one. I would have been disappointed if I hadn't experienced what truly sub-par accuracy looks like in one of these things. I'm thinking that I will hold off on the Apex barrel for now on this one. It'll probably serve double duty as an IDPA and defensive pistol.

I did take the factory barrel out of it and dropped it into the one with terrible accuracy. And lo and behold... that gun still shot like crap. Looks like the slop is somewhere in the slide / frame. I did change my mind and decide to get a shipping label from S&W just to see what they might do with it. If they change the barrel out, obviously it's going to do almost nothing. I'll post up updates / results when I have them.

Back to the VTAC... I would say that I was grouping around 2-3" at 10 yards. Most shots were fairly close but there was a flyer or two. I'm not 100% convinced it wasn't me, though, because that gun came with what feels like a million pound trigger. It is reasonably crisp (not creepy like a Glock) but the wall you hit before it breaks is crazy heavy. I had one of the range guys give it a try. It was almost comical... he was aiming the gun like 15 seconds before it fired. Afterward, he told me that that entire time was spent slowly increasing finger pressure on the trigger until it finally fired. I'm definitely going to have to take a stone to the sear -- the engagement area with the striker is probably quite sizable. If, after the trigger is worked over, it still only groups 3" at 10 yards, then I'll consider another Apex SDI barrel.

Secondly, the thing was shooting left... like way left... maybe 3 inches at just 7 yards. At 25 yards, I was barely on the paper. I looked at the sights and it appeared that the front sight was a little too far to the right in the dovetail. Fortunately, the range had an M&P sight pusher. I drifted it and now it points well enough. I didn't have to touch the rear, which is good because the VTAC Warrior sights don't leave a lot of room in the dovetail for drifting the rear sight. Speaking of the sights... I expected to hate them based on what I saw online, especially considering that I like to keep my rear sights as plain as possible. Turns out that they aren't that busy at all. When it's light out, you see the FO. When it's dark, you see the tritium. You don't really see both at the same time all that well at any point.

BrianKr, MM gave you good advice. I will add that my barrel didn't fit too well into the muzzle... it had to be coaxed (still kind of does). If I were to insert the muzzle end of the barrel into the slide from the front (like I was doing it backward), it fit into the hole in the slide. However, when trying to angle it into the slide the correct way, the hood contacts the bottom part of the breach face (the part that strips the fresh rounds from the magazine). Hopefully this doesn't happen to you. I tried putting the Apex barrel into the VTAC (hoping that by dumb luck it might fit and could serve double duty, saving me $200), but no such luck. It's the same problem only I really can't even coax it into the VTAC slide. Maybe it's the PVD coating that's causing it to bind.

Also, like MM said, fit it tight. Mine was tight, tight. After about 200 rounds, it *almost* goes into battery itself when I ease the slide forward. I'm sure that eventually it will, but I suspect that the change in the way the barrel moves in and out of battery vs OEM will keep it from losing much accuracy even when it wears in a lot more. I personally keep mine well lubed, as well, including the rails, the OD of the muzzle end of the bbl, and the little fitting pad area on the lug. After putting a number of rounds through it, I did notice a small bit of peening on either side of the rectangular "chamber" portion of the barrel (not on the lugs) where it must make hard contact with the angular back portion of the locking block's edges when the slide is fully retracted. It isn't enough to worry me, though... I stoned it lightly just to make sure it was still square.

Now that I know that I can get these guns running well, I'm really debating about selling my relatively new Glock 34. I've got more rounds downrange with the Glock platform than with any other so I'm hesitant to take that step back in the learning curve. The Glock has a Vanek trigger, too, so it's just so easy to shoot well... I just don't have time to bother with making sure my brain knows which grip angle I should always be using.

[BrianKr]

Thanx again. WILCO!

[BrianKr]

I installed the barrel today and had a chance to shoot it.

Find the post here , post #45: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=231347&page=2#entry2588621

It installed much faster than I anticipated and with far fewer strokes of the file than I though it would take. Actually it was way too tight, then much looser than I wanted with only another 1 1/2" stroke of the file. Then I worked on the bottom pad and made sure I left that tight.

[TacticalReload]

II just got off the phone with S&W... I had sent the gun back and told them the accuracy was poor. Guess what... They told me that it shoots fine, and they are sending it back to me untouched.

I protested, told them I would send them pics of targets I shot, told them I understand that "accuracy problems" are often the fault of the customer but that this wasn't the case -- told them about the difference with the Apex barrel. The guy said that they are still sending it back to me and I should try it out. I asked why I should expect something different when the gun hasn't been fixed, repaired, replaced, etc. -- he said maybe they "adjusted" something and didn't note it. (Really?!?) I asked what ammo they put through it. The guy said that he believes they use cheap bulk 115gr ammo. He said that "the guys know what they are doing... they shoot all day, everyday." I asked what distance they test fire it, and he said 10 yards and the gun shot a 1.5" group during test firing. Normally, I wouldn't be at all happy with a full-sized game gun that only shoots 1.5" groups at 10 yards. In this case, I'd be f'ing thrilled if that really was the case since my gun is regularly firing 4-5" groups at that distance.

There is no way in hell that they put any reasonable amount of ammo through the gun (and by "reasonable", I only mean at least one full magazine) and think this gun shoots good enough to tell me that they "couldn't replicate the problem" unless (1) the stars, moons, planets, and galaxies all aligned and they got so lucky to shoot the first ever good group out of the gun, or (2) their standards for "good enough" are so piss-poor that 10"+ groups at 20 yards satisfies them on a plastic gun that cost $700.

He told me that if I'm still not happy, I can send it back AGAIN. For what? They freaking still have it there... I told him I'm not going to be happy since I wasn't happy when I shipped it and they didn't do anything to it... why does it need a return trip back to me and then back to them in order for them to give it a second look?

If it wasn't for Apex, I'd be selling this gun the instant the FedEx guy left my front porch. If I'm this irritated by the principle of the whole thing, imagine how annoyed I'd be if I actually didn't have an (albeit expensive) aftermarket solution.

Edited April 26, 2016 by TacticalReload

[B585]

II just got off the phone with S&W... I had sent the gun back and told them the accuracy was poor. Guess what... They told me that it shoots fine, and they are sending it back to me untouched.

I protested, told them I would send them pics of targets I shot, told them I understand that "accuracy problems" are often the fault of the customer but that this wasn't the case -- told them about the difference with the Apex barrel. The guy said that they are still sending it back to me and I should try it out. I asked why I should expect something different when the gun hasn't been fixed, repaired, replaced, etc. -- he said maybe they "adjusted" something and didn't note it. (Really?!?) I asked what ammo they put through it. The guy said that he believes they use cheap bulk 115gr ammo. He said that "the guys know what they are doing... they shoot all day, everyday." I asked what distance they test fire it, and he said 10 yards and the gun shot a 1.5" group during test firing. Normally, I wouldn't be at all happy with a full-sized game gun that only shoots 1.5" groups at 10 yards. In this case, I'd be f'ing thrilled if that really was the case since my gun is regularly firing 4-5" groups at that distance.

There is no way in hell that they put any reasonable amount of ammo through the gun (and by "reasonable", I only mean at least one full magazine) and think this gun shoots good enough to tell me that they "couldn't replicate the problem" unless (1) the stars, moons, planets, and galaxies all aligned and they got so lucky to shoot the first ever good group out of the gun, or (2) their standards for "good enough" are so piss-poor that 10"+ groups at 20 yards satisfies them on a plastic gun that cost $700.

He told me that if I'm still not happy, I can send it back AGAIN. For what? They freaking still have it there... I told him I'm not going to be happy since I wasn't happy when I shipped it and they didn't do anything to it... why does it need a return trip back to me and then back to them in order for them to give it a second look?

If it wasn't for Apex, I'd be selling this gun the instant the FedEx guy left my front porch. If I'm this irritated by the principle of the whole thing, imagine how annoyed I'd be if I actually didn't have an (albeit expensive) aftermarket solution.

I really hate to hear this. I used to be a big fan of Smith and Wesson/TC. Myself and friends/family have always had good luck with their pistols/rifles in the past. I am extremely disappointed with the accuracy of my "Performance Center". I had one group at 25 yards around 4" and that must have been a fluke because I haven't seen anything that good again. I have had others shoot it (always with a rest) with the same disappointing results. It has been consistently inconsistent (it may shoot dead center, high, low, left, right) all in the same mag. It shoots better when it is hot, but still not what I expected for this price point. Based on the response you recieved, it sounds like management just doesn't care and that explains why these poor performing (in terms of accuracy) pistols are leaving the factory (every company lets one slip every now and then but this certainly seems like more of a trend then a fluke). To be fair, mine has been 100% reliable to date. Sill, like you said, if it wasn't for Apex, I wouldn't own this gun. Hopefully, S&W will take note and change their expectations/policies. There are many other choices out there that don't require aftermarket parts.

Edited April 26, 2016 by B585

[TacticalReload]

I can't imagine that they will ever "fix" the inherent problem with the M&P accuracy. The gun has been out for years and their answer has been to speed up the twist rate. My last three performance center guns all had to be repaired under warranty. One had wooden grips that were so poorly fitted that a child could see that the gun shouldn't have left the factory. I was at a gun show last weekend and made a point to examine as many new PC revolvers that I could find. Literally a majority of them had drag marks on the hammers from rubbing on the frames. I noticed some canted barrels, too. Trigger pulls on the PC guns don't seem any better to me than the "regular" revolvers, either. I noticed one that had such a jagged edge on the over-travel screw that it had chewed into the steel where it contacts the frame behind the trigger. I have no idea what the hell is going on over there in Massachusetts. S&W used to be one of my favorite manufacturers and I felt good about supporting an American company.

I was really considering picking up a 40L to build into a Limited pistol so I could get back into USPSA. However, I have seen enough reports of mediocre accuracy with even the .40 models that I couldn't bring myself to do it. Good thing I didn't because I'm so fed up with S&W's QC right now that I don't really want to give them any more of my money. I found a screaming deal on a NIB HK45c and bought that instead. Not a game gun by any stretch and people like to smack talk HKs price and CS, but I haven't had a single issue with any HKs that I've owned (which includes the P7M8, P30, P30L, HK45ct, USP9, and USP40c). In fact, I don't even think I've had one malfunction that wasn't ammo related. As for price, I've got as much or more $$ into the M&P by now (not including the RMR) than I do into any so-called "overpriced" HK or SIG I ever bought except the P7M8 and a P226 Elite Stainless that I still own. Going forward, if anyone ever asks for advice as to what plastic gun to buy, I'll make a point of steering them away from the M&Ps.

The sad thing is a VAST majority of gun buyers aren't going to be like the average person on this forum. Most will put a box of ammo through their gun once or twice per year (or maybe less). Most will never tinker with it or try to push it to test its function or accuracy limits. Most wouldn't even know a "good" gun from a "bad" gun. They pick up an M&P and it feels great in their hand. They fire off a box of ammo at 5 yards and hit the target somewhere in the silhouette and call it a day. The vehemently defend their love for S&W on different online forums... and never realize that their gun holds 6-12" groups at 25 yards benched. Good enough is good enough for them, and that's cool. I just don't see a sustainable business model for that, though. I guess I'm wrong, however, since there are entire brands out there that follow that philosophy.

What I really wonder about are the LEOs carrying the M&P9. That's REALLY scary, IMO.

Edited April 26, 2016 by TacticalReload

[BrianKr]

S&W has no problem selling everything that they make, so like the US auto makers of the 60's, from their viewpoint, "Why do we need to change?". I like the fit of the M&P just not so happy with a gun I paid extra for to get a comp' gun and all it was was a comp' gun in drag. Underneath it wasn't what I wanted.

As far as a combat gun, it's probably OK for that, esp' if it's in .40 or .45 as those guns don't seem to have the problem. As far as LEOs, sure, many can actually shoot, but unless things have changed radically since I was one, many can't. I remember officers who had to qualify in a private session because they couldn't hit a barn wall if they were inside the barn. For those folks a 6" group at 15 yards would still easily outshoot them.

When I was discussing my gun with the gent at S&W I told him what I could do and what I required and it appeared to come as some sort of revelation to him that anyone could shoot that good and have those requirements. So are they simply disbelieving what we need or just don't care? I don't have that answer. But the APEX barrel certainly appears to be the answer. My gun will shoot, just not with the OEM barrel. Apex has a gold mine on their hands with replacement barrels and the mine was given to them by S&W.

If I get a spare M&P, and that's very likely, if I have accuracy issues I won't even contact S&W, I'll just order another Apex barrel and trigger parts and be done with it immediately. In fact I would consider it as part of the purchase price of the gun and if I don't need it I'm that much ahead. But I very much doubt that I would order another Performance Center gun and pay for something I won't receive, since I'm going to change it all anyway to make it right to actually get it to perform. What a shame that they can't actually make a proper product out of the Performance Center. If we continue to buy all that they canmake IMO nothing will change.

Now I'd like to see Apex make a threaded barrel and a ported barrel, but of course the ported offering can be done by MagnaPort if Apex doesn't. (both just for kicks) But I suspect that they have their CNC machines very busy right now fixing the S&W errors. Just a suspicion on my part. But they have to know they have a gold mine. I got an e-mail tonight from Apex touting their barrels as the single most important issue for M&P accuracy; so they are aware.

Sorry for my ramblings, it's late and I need sleep. G'night. :-)

[TacticalReload]

Brian, you seem more level-headed about this whole debacle than I am, which is respectable. I guess I was especially fired up because I had just gotten off the phone after a frustrating conversation with S&W. I've never been one to leave a pistol stock (as is, I'm sure, the case with most of us here) unless it was solely a defensive gun. But almost all of those types of changes were made to improve an adequate gun. Don't like the stock Glock trigger? Swap it out. Don't like the sights on your revolver? Swap them out. Think your pistol that groups 3" is not accurate enough? Change the barrel, tighten the gun, etc. But I haven't ever run into a gun that wasn't broken or defective that groups like this one, so I view it as exactly that -- defective. Problem is that the "defect" apparently is a function of the design as evidenced by the wide-spread issue, and the manufacturer refuses to address it. Top that off with the way the phone conversation went, and I get quite irritable.

I respect you decision to factor an extra $200 into the cost of the gun when looking at additional M&Ps... it's what anyone who cares about accuracy should really do. However, I need to take it one further and say that I simply won't bother buying any more products from them for the foreseeable future. Part of that is on principle but most of it is because I've seen too many problems with their current-production revolvers lately and I just don't see the value in another M&P. A $500-700 base gun plus $200 for the barrel plus $50-150 for the trigger work and you are left with a plastic gun that could cost you over $1000 just to get it to shoot accurately with some semblance of a usable trigger... and that's before guiderods, springs, sights, magwells, and all the other doo-dads that we like to put onto game guns. I just feel like there are platforms that represent a better value, no matter how good the grip feels in the hand. And like I said, the phone call left me feeling feel burnt by them. The whole "if you're still not happy then send it back again" thing left me cranky when they flat out said that they didn't do anything to the gun. I don't put spoiled milk back into the fridge hoping that in three days it might magically taste good again. He suggested that maybe they had actually fixed it... he literally said "Well, one person might have adjusted something and put the gun down... then the next guy might have picked it up, test fired it, and said it's good while not knowing that someone else fixed the gun." That is stupid on so many levels that I couldn't even begin to argue.

As for the law enforcement angle, I hear you. I was never a LEO, but I worked for a security contractor and we employed a ton of former LE -- plus those that weren't still were getting paid to carry a gun, which IMO means it's your responsibility to know how to adequately use that firearm. Sadly, every 6 month re-qualification came with a disheartening amount of people pulled from the contract until they could successfully requalify (issued handguns were Glock 19's firing 115gr standard pressure). The course of fire was a joke and the requirements were merely to meet 80% of max score. A quarter of the shots were taken at between contact distance and 3 yards, and none were taken at longer than 15 yards (with more half the 15 yard shots being braced)... and there were people scoring less than 40% of max score. All that being said, just because a gun that patterns 6" at 15 yards could out-shoot them doesn't mean that I'd want to put those guns in their holsters. I don't think that starting with one hand behind your back is okay... I think the fact that a lot of them can't shoot is even more reason to have a gun that actually puts bullets where it's pointed. But I hear what you're saying.

[want2race]

I guess I've been lucky. Although I have witnessed horrendous accuracy from standard models, both Pro's I've shot extensively grouped well enough for me to not even think about it. The obvious issue Smith is having is unfortunate because I really support Smith in general. Sig is about to blow the doors off. I predict a large number of used M&P's hitting the market very very soon. Sig is watching and listening. I'll save the direct comparisons for another thread though.

I just finished installing the Apex barrel and I'm impressed.

[TacticalReload]

I'd love to jump in with both feet with the P320 when the target model comes out, since I'm a huge SIG fan in general. However, they have never been game guns for me for all the usual reasons. Hopefully the trigger gets a little better out of the box or additional options come to market for easy / inexpensive upgrades. One thing I do like about the trigger is how far forward it breaks... having to pull the trigger almost all the way back on a lot of these guns (or buying a FSS) is less than ideal, IMO. The position of the slide catch lever, the size of the take down lever, and the high bore axis give me pause, though. (None of these things bother me in a carry gun.)