Frame/rail weight or weapon light division requirements

[Akkid17]

I've been curious about this for a little bit and haven't been able to pin down a real definitive answer. If a person has a rail weight, such as the sjc rail weight, or a weapon mounted light (provided it is never illuminated) does that put them in open or can they shoot limited with a frame weight?

And if they can I'm wondering why more plastic shooters don't put one on to match up with the sti's.

Thanks

[facedown]

You can use weights in Limited (or Lim 10) but a mounted flashlight puts you in Open.

[Sarge]

You can use weights in Limited (or Lim 10) but a mounted flashlight puts you in Open.

Not so fast. As much as disagree with the decision you can take the bulb out of a flashlight and miraculously turn it into a weight for limited

[Akkid17]

How about in uspsa multigun? Would TAC optics basically be under the same rules as limited for pistol?

[dominatus]

Related question. As far as I can tell a threaded barrel with a "sight tracker" threaded on would be legal also. I'm not talking about a comp, no holes, only a sight on the end. Is this correct?

[andyroth]

Frame weights are legal in limited, more people don't do it because it almost always requires an expensive race style holster.

You could take a page out of Bob Vogel's book and take the guts out of a light and fill it with lead shot. The advantage to that over a standard frame weight is there are a lot more holster options.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[Nightops]

Related question. As far as I can tell a threaded barrel with a "sight tracker" threaded on would be legal also. I'm not talking about a comp, no holes, only a sight on the end. Is this correct?

http://taylorfreelance.com/shopping/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15&products_id=75

That is legal for USPSA limited. Downside though it is still a Glock.

I think the reason a lot of people don't use frame weights for limited, isn't that they need race holsters, since most already use them. The frame weight goes where the race holster is, in front of the trigger guard, below the dust cover. You would need some other kind of holster like a formed kydex around your specific setup.

[wgj3]

Yup, I had a dovetail cut into my thread protector on my M&P's. They are legit in USPSA and 3G so far.

[BrocDowns]

I've been setting up a G35 latley and I am going to buy a frame weight, luckily my holser guy lives near me and is also a sponsor (Red Eye Tactical) so he can take my gun and mold one to it. I've seen some of peoples holsters like that he did and the alll seem to love them. Good option for shooters not wanting to go with a "race holster"

[dominatus]

Related question. As far as I can tell a threaded barrel with a "sight tracker" threaded on would be legal also. I'm not talking about a comp, no holes, only a sight on the end. Is this correct?

Are the above and frame weights legal in ipsc standard division, providing it fits in the box? I believe I've read the appropriate parts of the ipsc rule book but see no mention of such items.

[Solscud007]

Anyone know why pistol lights are forbidden in anything other than Open? It should be allowed but be a functioning light with batteries. The moment you out weights in it, it is no longer a functioning light and therefore puts you in open. Kinda like putting more ammo in a mag for production would bump you in a different division right?

What perceived advantage is there to having a functioning pistol light that it should not be allowed?

[Sarge]

Anyone know why pistol lights are forbidden in anything other than Open? It should be allowed but be a functioning light with batteries. The moment you out weights in it, it is no longer a functioning light and therefore puts you in open. Kinda like putting more ammo in a mag for production would bump you in a different division right?

What perceived advantage is there to having a functioning pistol light that it should not be allowed?

In order of personal annoyance calling a flashlight legal in limited by not calling it a flashlight is right up there with CO. I think it's laughable that you can use a flashlight without a bulb in it and it becomes a frame weight! A flashlight is a flashlight is a flashlight......

But to answer your question about "working" (I just chuckled again) flashlights, the rules simply prohibit them in anything but open division. If you read the appendices they clearly mention flashlights being permitted. Open - yes. All others - no. Open division is the division where there are virtually no limits to what you can do to a pistol.

[MikeBurgess]

Anyone know why pistol lights are forbidden in anything other than Open? It should be allowed but be a functioning light with batteries. The moment you out weights in it, it is no longer a functioning light and therefore puts you in open. Kinda like putting more ammo in a mag for production would bump you in a different division right?

What perceived advantage is there to having a functioning pistol light that it should not be allowed?

I would say the reason to prohibit working flashlights is two fold.

1 when the rules were originally written Limited was more limited. and weights were illegal.

2 if functioning lights were allowed then you would see at a amazing pace the development of super bright focused beam lights that would be used as aiming devices thus making Limited more like Open.

Unfortunately doing a comprehensive (or even superficial read through) of the rule book when we make changes to a division is nearly impossible, so we end up with strange rules and rulings that do not really fit together very well.

when Limited was updated to allow pretty much anything but optics and compensators we should have removed the rule against mounted lights because the functional difference between a frame weight and a frame mounted flash light ,that is off, is nill. we could have replaced it with a prohibition on having any said light turned on.

[bret]

Area 6 a guy had a flashlight, I let the CRO and the RM know.

He should have been bumped to open but Troy said since it was non functioning, then it was ok.

Appendix D2 Limited 14, says No installed flashlights, it doesn't say they are ok if they are non functioning.

Either follow the rule or change it, don't ignore it as some RM's may not ignore it while others do.

[bret]

How about in uspsa multigun? Would TAC optics basically be under the same rules as limited for pistol?

Flashlight on your pistol is a bump to open in USPSA Multigun.

Tactical Optics means you can have 1 optic with magnification on your rifle, no other optics allowed.

[motosapiens]

Area 6 a guy had a flashlight, I let the CRO and the RM know.

He should have been bumped to open but Troy said since it was non functioning, then it was ok.

Appendix D2 Limited 14, says No installed flashlights, it doesn't say they are ok if they are non functioning.

Either follow the rule or change it, don't ignore it as some RM's may not ignore it while others do.

So you weren't paying attention when this was discussed endlessly regarding bob vogel's gun last year? If it's not functioning, it's not considered a light by uspsa.

[bret]

Area 6 a guy had a flashlight, I let the CRO and the RM know.

He should have been bumped to open but Troy said since it was non functioning, then it was ok.

Appendix D2 Limited 14, says No installed flashlights, it doesn't say they are ok if they are non functioning.

Either follow the rule or change it, don't ignore it as some RM's may not ignore it while others do.

So you weren't paying attention when this was discussed endlessly regarding bob vogel's gun last year? If it's not functioning, it's not considered a light by uspsa.

If I have a cmore on my gun, but take the battery out of it and the electronics, am I in limited or open?

Taking the engine out of a car doesn't mean it's not still a car, it's just a non functioning car, just as taking the guts out of a flashlight doesn't change the fact it's a flashlight, it's just a non functioning flashlight.

The rule says attached flashlight is not allowed in limited.

[motosapiens]

Area 6 a guy had a flashlight, I let the CRO and the RM know.

He should have been bumped to open but Troy said since it was non functioning, then it was ok.

Appendix D2 Limited 14, says No installed flashlights, it doesn't say they are ok if they are non functioning.

Either follow the rule or change it, don't ignore it as some RM's may not ignore it while others do.

So you weren't paying attention when this was discussed endlessly regarding bob vogel's gun last year? If it's not functioning, it's not considered a light by uspsa.

If I have a cmore on my gun, but take the battery out of it and the electronics, am I in limited or open?

Taking the engine out of a car doesn't mean it's not still a car, it's just a non functioning car, just as taking the guts out of a flashlight doesn't change the fact it's a flashlight, it's just a non functioning flashlight.

The rule says attached flashlight is not allowed in limited.

if you take the bulb out, it's not a flashlight according to USPSA. I don't care about your car or c-more.

It's similar to the interpretation that says that faulting is the same as being outside the shooting area. It may sound silly, and I may not agree with it, but it's official, and we will all be silly together.

Edited August 3, 2016 by motosapiens

[Sarge]

Area 6 a guy had a flashlight, I let the CRO and the RM know.

He should have been bumped to open but Troy said since it was non functioning, then it was ok.

Appendix D2 Limited 14, says No installed flashlights, it doesn't say they are ok if they are non functioning.

Either follow the rule or change it, don't ignore it as some RM's may not ignore it while others do.

So you weren't paying attention when this was discussed endlessly regarding bob vogel's gun last year? If it's not functioning, it's not considered a light by uspsa.

If I have a cmore on my gun, but take the battery out of it and the electronics, am I in limited or open?

Taking the engine out of a car doesn't mean it's not still a car, it's just a non functioning car, just as taking the guts out of a flashlight doesn't change the fact it's a flashlight, it's just a non functioning flashlight.

The rule says attached flashlight is not allowed in limited.

I don't think anybody agrees with you more than I do. I think it's totally bogus but like moto said this horse was beat to death over and over last year.

FWIW, you DO NOT want a cmore on your gun without a battery in it even if it were legal. When they are not on you can't hit crap beyond a few yards. I know this for a fact!

[MikeBurgess]

Area 6 a guy had a flashlight, I let the CRO and the RM know.

He should have been bumped to open but Troy said since it was non functioning, then it was ok.

Appendix D2 Limited 14, says No installed flashlights, it doesn't say they are ok if they are non functioning.

Either follow the rule or change it, don't ignore it as some RM's may not ignore it while others do.

So you weren't paying attention when this was discussed endlessly regarding bob vogel's gun last year? If it's not functioning, it's not considered a light by uspsa.

If I have a cmore on my gun, but take the battery out of it and the electronics, am I in limited or open?

Taking the engine out of a car doesn't mean it's not still a car, it's just a non functioning car, just as taking the guts out of a flashlight doesn't change the fact it's a flashlight, it's just a non functioning flashlight.

The rule says attached flashlight is not allowed in limited.

I think if you took the lens and batteries out of a C-more it would be pretty easy to make the argument that it is Not an optical sight but just a really bad sight and legal in limited. I think the key would be removing the lens.

[bret]

IMO the rule is clear, no attached flashlights in Limited.

The interpretation is wrong, has DNROI made an official declaration on it?

The rule doesn't say non functioning flashlights are allowed, it says attached flashlights are not allowed.

Not much clearer than that.

[Sarge]

I have a headache all over again because I just retread the original thread

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=24162&page=2

[bret]

I don't see it as a NROI Ruling, so it is just an interpretation.

[motosapiens]

IMO the rule is clear, no attached flashlights in Limited.

The interpretation is wrong, has DNROI made an official declaration on it?

The rule doesn't say non functioning flashlights are allowed, it says attached flashlights are not allowed.

Not much clearer than that.

I will vote for you for the new DNROI, but until then, I will do what the old one says, whether it's about flashlights, or faulting being the same as 'being outside'. In the meantime, perhaps you could get a job as the Clintons' lawyer, and argue about what the meaning of 'is' is.

fwiw, I started a few stages at A3 with 1 foot in and 1 foot out. yeah, it's wrong, but we are all wrong together, so it's fair. OTOH, another dude on my squad started 1 in and 1 out, and forgot to move his foot in for the first several shots. Doh. Gamers gotta game.

Edited August 4, 2016 by motosapiens

[jhgtyre]

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