alecmc Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Bobbed hammers are certainly "racier" than a stock hammer; a bobbed hammer screams "race gun". I just haven't seen any measurable benefits to ignition at typical USPSA trigger pull weights.I haven't yet tried an apex hammer (because of cost) but I have seen posts claiming it's possible to get DA pulls under 3# using them. That is impossible with a stock heavier hammer. Some of the pros can chime in, but that is the whole point of the thing: can still fire the primer with a SUPER light mainspring.Some people run a skeletonized or bobbed hammer for looks, but they also do have a functional aspect. Under 3 lbs ? Did they measure it without the rebound spring in ? Stop worrying about who has the lightest trigger, make sure it's smooth and feels good. 5-6 lbs is perfectly fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcc7x7 Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Bobbed hammers are certainly "racier" than a stock hammer; a bobbed hammer screams "race gun". I just haven't seen any measurable benefits to ignition at typical USPSA trigger pull weights.I haven't yet tried an apex hammer (because of cost) but I have seen posts claiming it's possible to get DA pulls under 3# using them. That is impossible with a stock heavier hammer. Some of the pros can chime in, but that is the whole point of the thing: can still fire the primer with a SUPER light mainspring.Some people run a skeletonized or bobbed hammer for looks, but they also do have a functional aspect. Under 3 lbs ? Did they measure it without the rebound spring in ?Stop worrying about who has the lightest trigger, make sure it's smooth and feels good. 5-6 lbs is perfectly fine. Yea buddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBorland Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 The thing I know with 100% certainty is that reducing mass on the hammer or striker, for a given spring weight, gives a hotter (more effective) strike. Seen it myself as posted about my Glock 35. It's why reduced mass strikers exist and why people pay $80 for them.... Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) Bobbed hammers are certainly "racier" than a stock hammer; a bobbed hammer screams "race gun". I just haven't seen any measurable benefits to ignition at typical USPSA trigger pull weights.I haven't yet tried an apex hammer (because of cost) but I have seen posts claiming it's possible to get DA pulls under 3# using them. That is impossible with a stock heavier hammer. Some of the pros can chime in, but that is the whole point of the thing: can still fire the primer with a SUPER light mainspring.Some people run a skeletonized or bobbed hammer for looks, but they also do have a functional aspect. Under 3 lbs ? Did they measure it without the rebound spring in ? Yes, but it's obviously not a stock RB spring. I have not personally used the Apex hammer but posts have reported that it's strike energy is good enough to allow very light mainspring force and gives ridiculously light DA pulls. The number I recall was 3.XX# ballpark. Maybe some of the comp shooters using the Apex hammer can chime in on what pull they are able to get. Aplogies if my memory is defective, but I think it was possible to get to about 3.XX# ballpark with minimum spring force and soft primers. If a comp shooter has data, please post. Edited February 23, 2016 by bountyhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Somebody else has the same recollection: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-smithing/121233-revolver-double-action-trigger-pull-weights.html Randy Lee Apex Tactical Specialties has them running reliabley under 3 lbs. +1 for Randy Lee at Apex tactical. I installed one of his L frame hammers this year and have the DA pull at 3.75. This is not for the meek to try to install. It did take a lot of tuning those little bits to get her there. I modified the stock main spring as see in the photo and a lightened an 11lb rebound spring. This is something I have not done to the spring in the past and its holding up well with little to no stack. Use With Federals Only. The other primmer out there will laugh at you if you try them. @ 4lb DA I had no issues with ignition. When I go under this to 3.75 I did have a miss fire during my last match, but I can not rule out the brass or primmer set correctly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 The main spring picture in that thread is pretty interesting. Why the milled out slot down the middle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 You show me a reliable 3# DA revolver trigger pull, and I'll show you a whore who ain't had the clap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 The main spring picture in that thread is pretty interesting. Why the milled out slot down the middle? I wondered about that myself. The wolff reduced power spring has a "rib" coined down the middle and it does something positive to performance. In tests on my 66 guns, the wolff spring gave about 1/2# lighter DA pull for the point where my ammo started to misfire compared to a stock spring that had added curve to it. The cut out spring clearly is to make it a lighter spring, but not sure if it does anything sexier than make it look like a Colt python barrel...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) You show me a reliable 3# DA revolver trigger pull, and I'll show you a whore who ain't had the clap. Then what is the min for a comp gun with minimum springs, an Apex hammer and restricted to soft primer ammo? The guy posting said 3.75 was not a problem so 3 ain't that far off. Wondering if anybody had gone through it and tried to wring it out and had numbers on the minimum. Edited February 24, 2016 by bountyhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 You show me a reliable 3# DA revolver trigger pull, and I'll show you a whore who ain't had the clap. Then what is the min for a comp gun with minimum springs, an Apex hammer and restricted to soft primer ammo? The guy posting said 3.75 was not a problem so 3 ain't that far off. Wondering if anybody had gone through it and tried to wring it out and had numbers on the minimum. I don't know. I just know I have no interest in anything under 5#, because there is no way to get under 5# without the trigger rebound becoming unacceptably soft and sluggish--at least for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 You show me a reliable 3# DA revolver trigger pull, and I'll show you a whore who ain't had the clap.That's awesome. I just about snarfed beer out my nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 You show me a reliable 3# DA revolver trigger pull, and I'll show you a whore who ain't had the clap. Then what is the min for a comp gun with minimum springs, an Apex hammer and restricted to soft primer ammo? The guy posting said 3.75 was not a problem so 3 ain't that far off. Wondering if anybody had gone through it and tried to wring it out and had numbers on the minimum. I don't know. I just know I have no interest in anything under 5#, because there is no way to get under 5# without the trigger rebound becoming unacceptably soft and sluggish--at least for me. I agree that with the stock hammer 5# is the min. But the Apex hammers smack harder for the same spring energy because of reduced mass which means you can dial the mainspring down more. Reducing the mainspring would not alter the rebound feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 I'd be willing to bet Carmonys hammers are pretty light. I know my hammer that I cut down similar to a picture of his work is lighter than the apex in my other gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWP Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 The Carmoney chop produces a significantly lighter hammer than the apex. A gun from apex was rumored in the high 3s, as a promotional gun if I remember correctly. The Apex hammer is a very high end piece, looks great and functions great, but I'm not sure the same ignition cannot be accomplished with a chopped factory hammer. My early guns from apex were in the 4.6-4.8lb range, but rebound was noticeably slower. .17-.18splits became .25s and it was incredibly easy to short stroke the gun. Apex has several rebound springs they include with their action jobs and it's just a matter of finding the one that works for each person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBorland Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 The Carmoney chop produces a significantly lighter hammer than the apex...The Apex hammer is a very high end piece, looks great and functions great, but I'm not sure the same ignition cannot be accomplished with a chopped factory hammer. True dat. In addition to actually weighing them, I was messing around measuring relative inertias of S&W hammers; and while the Apex hammer has, as you'd expect, lower inertia than a stock hammer, a chopped Carmoney hammer is lower. I'd have to check my notes, but if low inertia alone is the criteria, a chopped Carmoney hammer kicks the Apex's butt, IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 You show me a reliable 3# DA revolver trigger pull, and I'll show you a whore who ain't had the clap. Then what is the min for a comp gun with minimum springs, an Apex hammer and restricted to soft primer ammo? The guy posting said 3.75 was not a problem so 3 ain't that far off. Wondering if anybody had gone through it and tried to wring it out and had numbers on the minimum. I don't know. I just know I have no interest in anything under 5#, because there is no way to get under 5# without the trigger rebound becoming unacceptably soft and sluggish--at least for me. I agree that with the stock hammer 5# is the min. But the Apex hammers smack harder for the same spring energy because of reduced mass which means you can dial the mainspring down more. Reducing the mainspring would not alter the rebound feel. We can agree that to get the DA down under 5#, you must reduce both mainspring tension and rebound spring tension, right Bountyhunter? Most people who shoot the fast action sports don't want the sluggish rebound feel that becomes necessary to get under 5#, including me. Maybe for PPC or Bianchi or the other "watching the paint dry" shooting games! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 The Carmoney chop produces a significantly lighter hammer than the apex...The Apex hammer is a very high end piece, looks great and functions great, but I'm not sure the same ignition cannot be accomplished with a chopped factory hammer. True dat. In addition to actually weighing them, I was messing around measuring relative inertias of S&W hammers; and while the Apex hammer has, as you'd expect, lower inertia than a stock hammer, a chopped Carmoney hammer is lower. I'd have to check my notes, but if low inertia alone is the criteria, a chopped Carmoney hammer kicks the Apex's butt, IIRC. I was the Carroll Shelby of the custom revolver world. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) You show me a reliable 3# DA revolver trigger pull, and I'll show you a whore who ain't had the clap. Then what is the min for a comp gun with minimum springs, an Apex hammer and restricted to soft primer ammo? The guy posting said 3.75 was not a problem so 3 ain't that far off. Wondering if anybody had gone through it and tried to wring it out and had numbers on the minimum. I don't know. I just know I have no interest in anything under 5#, because there is no way to get under 5# without the trigger rebound becoming unacceptably soft and sluggish--at least for me. I agree that with the stock hammer 5# is the min. But the Apex hammers smack harder for the same spring energy because of reduced mass which means you can dial the mainspring down more. Reducing the mainspring would not alter the rebound feel. We can agree that to get the DA down under 5#, you must reduce both mainspring tension and rebound spring tension, right Bountyhunter? Most people who shoot the fast action sports don't want the sluggish rebound feel that becomes necessary to get under 5#, including me. Maybe for PPC or Bianchi or the other "watching the paint dry" shooting games! Yes. But what I was saying was that I got my comp model 66 guns down to 5# DA with a STOCK hammer and the RB action was just fine (for me). What I was saying was that by reducing hammer mas either by the Apex hammer or cutting down the stock hammer, you can maintain good ignition with a much lighter mainspring WITHOUT changing the RB spring lighter than what I was running in my 5# gun (which is lighter than stock). So I never considered getting it to 5# to be a great trick since I did it with a stock hammer. Of course the springs were reduced. Based on that I figured a lighter hammer should get it well below 5#. I understand some people really want a strong rebound spring, Jerry M was one of those. It never bothered me but I probably don't shoot as fast as you. I think for me the improved control given by lighter DA pull is a bigger plus. Edited February 25, 2016 by bountyhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 The Carmoney chop produces a significantly lighter hammer than the apex...The Apex hammer is a very high end piece, looks great and functions great, but I'm not sure the same ignition cannot be accomplished with a chopped factory hammer. True dat. In addition to actually weighing them, I was messing around measuring relative inertias of S&W hammers; and while the Apex hammer has, as you'd expect, lower inertia than a stock hammer, a chopped Carmoney hammer is lower. I'd have to check my notes, but if low inertia alone is the criteria, a chopped Carmoney hammer kicks the Apex's butt, IIRC. I was the Carroll Shelby of the custom revolver world. :-) That's big shoes to fill. Somewhere Carrol is wishing he could be out driving that new GT 350R that just kicked the Z-28 and ZO-6's butts...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 We can agree that to get the DA down under 5#, you must reduce both mainspring tension and rebound spring tension, right Bountyhunter? Most people who shoot the fast action sports don't want the sluggish rebound feel that becomes necessary to get under 5#, including me. Maybe for PPC or Bianchi or the other "watching the paint dry" shooting games! I get the "watching paint dry" reference for PPC but you're way off for shooting Bianchi with a revolver. The time limits might seem generous, but with a revolver you will find that there is just barely enough time for the given distances to place an accurate shot. If you clutch the trigger or have a light hammer strike you're totally screwed. Usually there is not enough time left for a 7th trigger pull, and never enough time to rotate the cylinder all the way around again. In order to get my shots off accurately in the given time limits I start my trigger pull before I'm on target, and accept for a brief follow through I try to keep the cylinder in constant motion. I'm usually done shooting early about one half a second or so before the target turns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 The main spring picture in that thread is pretty interesting. Why the milled out slot down the middle? I knew PPC shooters that were doing that to the mainspring in the late '80's, and most of them were find that the spring would fracture and most of them went back to the factory or Wolffe mainspring. Personally, I never saw the need to perform this mod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Another data point: this guy claims to have a reliable 3.25# DA trigger on a K-38. http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-smithing/465572-3-26-pound-double-action-uber-trigger-job-can-u-explain.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Since when did the Smith & Wesson forum become a repository of information about custom competition revolver work? Those little old hens don't even shoot their wheelguns! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Since when did the Smith & Wesson forum become a repository of information about custom competition revolver work? Those little old hens don't even shoot their wheelguns!Amen. I'm sure they would be mortified with how I've treated my formerly pristine 5" 625 model of 1989 since I got it a year and a half ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 exactly - the only thing S&W forum is good for is selling useless revolver parts that none of the enos crowd wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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