Wilson Combat spring kit + non Federal primers

[jh9]

Anybody used one of these?

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Custom-Tune-Spring-Kit-SW-K_L_N-Frame-Revolvers/productinfo/178/

If so, how was reliability with primers other than Federals?

[PatJones]

In general, if you want to lighten your double action pull you must reduce the amount of energy you are storing in the system. The energy you put in the system with your finger is what pops the primer.

There is no such thing as free lunch.

[MrBorland]

I can't speak to these specifically, but it's been my experience that, despite the marketing, aftermarket mainsprings I've tried haven't been much (or any) lighter than the stock spring, in which case, logic tells me you shouldn't see any reliability issues.

FWIW, when tuning the springs, I'll decide what DA pull weight I want, then choose the appropriate rebound spring, and gently bend the main to get to the DA target weight. Ideally, the rebound and mainsprings should be correctly balanced.

Edited December 20, 2015 by MrBorland

[woodrow]

I bought the wilson kit. Wouldn't say I was that impressed by it. Some people said to get the bang products. Was even less impressed. I mean yes it did improve a lot for 15 bucks. But my triggers were still not acceptable.

My 627pc came out the box with around a 12# da and my 625jm was a 14#.

With the wilson and bang products spring and all the stoning & honing, tweaking and twerking they got to 8#. 7.5# was spotty with federal primers. I tossed in the towel and sent them into Apex and he says he wants the stock springs not the fancy ones haaha.

I did feel that the wilson spring hit harder than the bang springs also it felt more positive. The hang spring lost positive feeling and became mushy to me. But hey jm uses em, so I obviously have no clue, but I'm trying to get there haaha.

Patjones, so if you say its the energy from the finger that pops the primer does that mean I can underspring and then yank the trigger harder to gain back reliability?

Sent from my LG-H901 using Tapatalk

[MWP]

No, you can't yank the trigger harder.

Smoothing up the action, an Apex firing pin and properly seating Federal primers can easily get you into the 7lb range with 100% reliability, even with an uncut hammer.

A spring kit isn't required.

Edited December 20, 2015 by MWP

[bountyhunter]

In general, if you want to lighten your double action pull you must reduce the amount of energy you are storing in the system. The energy you put in the system with your finger is what pops the primer.

There is no such thing as free lunch.

Truer words were never spoken.

That's why after a number of years, I just "tuned" the mainspring by making a mandrel bend using a home made jig. I set the spring force about 20% more than is needed to fire the primers and then "tune back" using the strain screw until I get reliable ignition at the lowest DA pull weight (usually about 1/4 turn out from bottomed). Yes, you must use blue Loctite if you run the strain screw not fully seated. Once your mainspring is dialed in, you reduce the rebound spring to "match" and you're done.

A lot of people make tons of money selling magic spring kits but at the end of the day: it's just a flat piece of metal. You can bend it and if you get it wrong, you can bend it back.

Edited December 20, 2015 by bountyhunter

[bountyhunter]

I bought the wilson kit. Wouldn't say I was that impressed by it. Some people said to get the bang products. Was even less impressed. I mean yes it did improve a lot for 15 bucks. But my triggers were still not acceptable.

My 627pc came out the box with around a 12# da and my 625jm was a 14#.

That's normal for a stock SW revo. Adding a spring kit usually gets it down to the 9# ballpark.

[MrBorland]

The energy you put in the system with your finger is what pops the primer.

Smoothing up the action, an Apex firing pin and properly seating Federal primers can easily get you into the 7lb range with 100% reliability, even with an uncut hammer.

A spring kit isn't required.

Just so I understand - you're claiming that one can get their gun from a 10-11lb factory trigger to 7lbs without messing with the springs? By "smoothing" only?

Regarding the strain screw - do as you wish, but it's a "strain" screw", not an "adjustment" screw - it's best to get the pull you want with the springs, then tighten the strain screw down. And even then, a little blue Loctite is a good idea.

Edited December 20, 2015 by MrBorland

[afoulk]

Anybody used one of these? http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Custom-Tune-Spring-Kit-SW-K_L_N-Frame-Revolvers/productinfo/178/ If so, how was reliability with primers other than Federals?

I've used it, but had to file the strain screw to get it to work for me. With a straight install without tuning, there's no way to guess how reliable it will be for you. If I hadn't filed the strain screw or further bent the spring, I'm sure it would have popped any primer on the market.

[pskys2]

I've had good luck with factory main springs and a Wolfe Rebound Spring Kit, multiple weights. I've yet to find a mainspring that's any better than factory.

Start with smoothing parts, rebound, trigger, hammer, cylinder stop. Get a good book/video to show what and where. It doesn't take a lot so go easy. Then adjust your mainspring, either factory or after market they all may need adjusted, by bending it somewhere between 40-50 ounces of hammer drop weight will light off Federals. More if you need to do others. Measure the hammer drop with a trigger pull scale and the arm hooked over the front of the hammer.

Once you get it reliable then get a rebound spring kit with multiple weights. Start with the lightest weight (Wolfes are 11 lbs.) and if want a stronger rebound go up on the weights. If you want the rebound lighter take a few coils off. I have an 11 lbs-2 coils.

You want the trigger return to be smooth with no hitches. Some like a robust rebound others can handle a lighter/softer rebound. It comes down to what feels good for you.

Use the search feature and you will find several threads on it.

Edited December 20, 2015 by pskys2

[jh9]

Thanks for the input guys. I've already polished the interior of the frame where the rebound moves and gone down to a 15lb Wolff spring for the rebound. I was hoping to find a mainspring that would still be reliable regardless of primer (this is a carry/nightstand gun, not a game gun) but maybe knock another pound or two off the DA weight. Not going for super light, just hoping for some improvement without compromising reliability.

I've got 3 Wolff Type-I / "factory" mainsprings in my parts box that don't work with either this gun or my older IDPA 686. In this gun with the factory strain screw tightened down all the way there's not enough preload on the spring to clear the rebound. When working the action the rebound hits the mainspring. In the other 686 it works with federal primers, but isn't even 100% with winchesters much less CCIs. These are Type I, not Type II.

Already have Apex carry/duty firing pins in both guns. I went ahead and ordered the wilson kit and will try it out and see with some Magtech ammo since the european primers have a rep for being pretty hard. Don't currently have any CCI primers on hand. Figure if it doesn't work I'm only out like $13. Just wanted to ping the hive mind first and see if anybody else had tried this getup.

Edited December 20, 2015 by jh9

[MWP]

The energy you put in the system with your finger is what pops the primer.

Smoothing up the action, an Apex firing pin and properly seating Federal primers can easily get you into the 7lb range with 100% reliability, even with an uncut hammer.

A spring kit isn't required.

Just so I understand - you're claiming that one can get their gun from a 10-11lb factory trigger to 7lbs without messing with the springs? By "smoothing" only?

You still have to mess with the springs, just not a spring kit, the factory springs are fine. Other than sights and grips to preference, a firing pin is the only change required for an excellent competition revolver.

[PatJones]

I don't care for the wolf mainsprings. A properly tuned factory mainspring will give better reliability at lower trigger weights.

[Toolguy]

I use the factory mainsprings (tuned) and a proprietary rebound spring that gives good reliability at 6.5 to 7 pounds. For a snappier rebound with any (especially lighter) rebound spring, radius the corners of the hammer and rebound slide where they meet when the slide rebounds the hammer. The bigger the radius, the easier the rebound slide will go back forward. There are limits to this - you still need to have a flat spot where the hammer sits on top of the rebound slide.

[MrBorland]

For a snappier rebound with any (especially lighter) rebound spring, radius the corners of the hammer and rebound slide where they meet when the slide rebounds the hammer. The bigger the radius, the easier the rebound slide will go back forward.

I always thought this would be a good modification, but never did it. Good to know it works.

[pskys2]

You will probably end up with 8 lbs+ if you want to light everything off with other than federal primers. It's not hard to adjust the mainspring by bending it. Again do it until you get 64 ounces hammer drop, I think that's what I found worked with all primers.

Another option is to get a spare strain screw and using the factory mainspring back it out until you have misfires with the hardest primer you can find. Then tighten it down until you don't have any. Add a half turn then measure and cut the strain screw down until it is seated completely and gives you the same hammer weight.

NOTE: don't apply full tension on the mainspring with the side plate off, you will break a hammer stud.

[bountyhunter]

Thanks for the input guys. I've already polished the interior of the frame where the rebound moves and gone down to a 15lb Wolff spring for the rebound. I was hoping to find a mainspring that would still be reliable regardless of primer (this is a carry/nightstand gun, not a game gun) but maybe knock another pound or two off the DA weight. Not going for super light, just hoping for some improvement without compromising reliability.

The wolff reduced power springs will light just about everything (assuming a stock strain screw that nobody has ground on and has not worn over time). HOWEVER: I would never recommend reduced power springs on any life defense gun. A really good job of slicking the internals will make it FEEL much lighter without changing springs.

FYI, in the unfortunate event you ever have to fire in defense of your life, that stock 12# pull will feel like about four ounces......

Edited December 21, 2015 by bountyhunter

[RePete]

I've tried the Bang, Wilson and Wolfe springs, and frankly ended up staying with the factory mainspring and the Wolfe 14# rebound spring. The rebound spring would give a 2 1/2 # SA pull, as dictated by PPC rules (1985). I have stayed with this combination on my IDPA/IPSC/USPSA revolvers.

[Alaskan454]

I've used the Wilson kits mainly for the three rebound springs, I think I have swapped my springs about 12 times this year until I found what I considered to be the sweet spot. You can modify the factory springs and still get the same result but sometimes it's nice to have the extra rebound springs if you decide to go heavier again.

[RePete]

I have also clipped the factory rebound, no more than 1 1/2 coils, more than that and trigger return becomes intermittent.

[stardust tommy]

I use the factory mainsprings (tuned) and a proprietary rebound spring that gives good reliability at 6.5 to 7 pounds. For a snappier rebound with any (especially lighter) rebound spring, radius the corners of the hammer and rebound slide where they meet when the slide rebounds the hammer. The bigger the radius, the easier the rebound slide will go back forward. There are limits to this - you still need to have a flat spot where the hammer sits on top of the rebound slide.

+1

for a light DA you have to tune the forward motion of the trigger... the reset

[bountyhunter]

Anybody used one of these? http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Custom-Tune-Spring-Kit-SW-K_L_N-Frame-Revolvers/productinfo/178/ If so, how was reliability with primers other than Federals?

From the ad:

This kit gave a very nice trigger pull on my S&W 617, but in double action it caused light hammer strikes 60% misfire. Single action was not as bad; only 5-10% misfire.

That's why I just bend the stock spring until I gerte exactly what I need. Otherwise you end up with a bagfull of various spring weights. These are probably OK, chances are they will work... if not, you can always bend them.

There are many weight rebound springs available, simpler just to buy stock ones and cut the length. That way you know exactly what weight they are by measuring the length and you don't have to keep five different kinds around.

Edited January 4, 2016 by bountyhunter

[jh9]

Anybody used one of these? http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Custom-Tune-Spring-Kit-SW-K_L_N-Frame-Revolvers/productinfo/178/ If so, how was reliability with primers other than Federals?

From the ad:

This kit gave a very nice trigger pull on my S&W 617, but in double action it caused light hammer strikes 60% misfire. Single action was not as bad; only 5-10% misfire.

That's why I just bend the stock spring until I gerte exactly what I need. Otherwise you end up with a bagfull of various spring weights. These are probably OK, chances are they will work... if not, you can always bend them.

There are many weight rebound springs available, simpler just to buy stock ones and cut the length. That way you know exactly what weight they are by measuring the length and you don't have to keep five different kinds around.

Aren't the rimfire guns notorious for being sensitive to lighter mainsprings? I kinda chalked the 617 issue up to being a .22

At any rate, I tried it out yesterday with a Wolff type 1 (which didn't work before with the short strain screw) and a longer strain screw. AFAIK they make 3 of these? A short (round butt?), medium (square butt?) and a longer version that I have no clue what it's used for. With the longer strain screw it popped off 50 Fiocchi primers and left a deep mark, but was nearly as heavy as the stock spring with the shorter strain screw. The lighter (13,14 pound) rebound springs made for a way too sluggish reset.

I went back to the 15 pound Wolff rebound spring and stock mainspring. Since it's not a dedicated game gun and I've gone as far as I can with rebound springs and a fine stone I'll probably just send this one off and let someone who knows what they're doing do a proper "carry" action job.