brisix Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 It could because it is to new but none of these complaints of adding PCC have come to pass at the matches that have had PCC. Let's look at history. USPSA failed once by staying true to the "core shooters" and that was around 3 gun. They missed the boat and now you have a bunch of spin off organization filling that void. Its all about USPSA capturing the revenues from the classification system and the major matches. To think of the money USPSA has lost due to the failure of not embracing 3 gun. The same will be true of PCC. If your a MD and you don't want to have PCC in your match that's your right. On the whole MDs will include it and it will be a success. And if your a shooter that thinks this is the death of USPSA then go create you own organization like IDPA. I do not shoot IDPA because USPSA is more fun and is a greater challenge. Any break away organization will likely be less fun and less challenging when created for the same reason that IDPA broke away. If you look at the combined scores that's on you and you can deal with the ego crushing reality that you will be crushed by Open and PCC shooters. There are no awards in USPSA for 1st combined overall so it is a mute point. You never hear Ben Stoeger or any other division winners caring if he is beat by the top 2-3 Open shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 Open limited revolver etc follow the same rules same cof. Rifle will hAve jts own rules aND modified cof. How is that the same?For all intents and purposes its the same on both counts. Besides why do you care if a carbine shooter starts at the low ready. YOU ARE NOT SHOOTING AGAINST THEM! There is a whole lot of whining going on for no reason. How someone else shoots in another division does nothing to take away from your division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 Open limited revolver etc follow the same rules same cof. Rifle will hAve jts own rules aND modified cof. How is that the same?For all intents and purposes its the same on both counts. Besides why do you care if a carbine shooter starts at the low ready. YOU ARE NOT SHOOTING AGAINST THEM! There is a whole lot of whining going on for no reason. How someone else shoots in another division does nothing to take away from your division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 It could because it is to new but none of these complaints of adding PCC have come to pass at the matches that have had PCC. Let's look at history. USPSA failed once by staying true to the "core shooters" and that was around 3 gun. They missed the boat and now you have a bunch of spin off organization filling that void. Its all about USPSA capturing the revenues from the classification system and the major matches. To think of the money USPSA has lost due to the failure of not embracing 3 gun. The same will be true of PCC. If your a MD and you don't want to have PCC in your match that's your right. On the whole MDs will include it and it will be a success. And if your a shooter that thinks this is the death of USPSA then go create you own organization like IDPA. I do not shoot IDPA because USPSA is more fun and is a greater challenge. Any break away organization will likely be less fun and less challenging when created for the same reason that IDPA broke away. If you look at the combined scores that's on you and you can deal with the ego crushing reality that you will be crushed by Open and PCC shooters. There are no awards in USPSA for 1st combined overall so it is a mute point. You never hear Ben Stoeger or any other division winners caring if he is beat by the top 2-3 Open shooters. This whole post is pretty funny. "Don't like it....leave" is a great thing to tell shooters that have been participating the the most popular competition......I wonder why it has been so popular.....hmmmm But beyond that, it is even more hysterical because you claim that if handgun shooters want handguns only they should start their own matches. Well they did and now rifle shooters that don't want to start their own matches are calling other people whiners. That is loaded with so much awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) ou can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me. No you can't run a PCC with zero changes. the proposed appendix proves that as well as having to modify positions that PCC shooters shoot from in some stages. Saying zero changes is just wrong If PCC was so popular at SHOT then it shouldn't be to hard to create stand alone matches. I mean if there is so much industry support why not. Edited March 6, 2016 by Strick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 Then don't goYou may want to explore the quote function if you want to respond to someone.I'm waiting for someone to try making sense of adding a rifle division the the PISTOL rules....not seeing anybody coming close to it. The best people have come up with so far is "it won't hurt anything" or something along those lines. There are already matches dedicated to 3-gun, multi-gun etc...and that's where rifles belong. Why someone feels the need to mess with pistol matches is beyond me. For all the folks who say it won't change anything, that's simply not the case, and it's easy to prove. Now for any stage with a turning start we're going to say "oops, you have to add a table to your stage design for the PCC shooters...sorry, it's how it has to be. Too bad you can't have the stage set up the way you wanted it, there's got to be a table taking up space where you might have wanted something else." Mini-Mart? Let's just change that classifier because it won't work for PCC. Melody Line? Hmmm...guess we'll have to add a table for that as well. Gun in box stages (yes, I've seen those recently)...nope, unless you build an extra box for PCC. Beware the law of unintended consequences. The chance that stage designs won't get altered at least a little bit is virtually nonexistent. Stage designers will see how PCC shooters game their stages, and they will respond and before you know it we could wind up with either the stupidest rifle stages or the stupidest pistol stages at the same match. If I was running a club I know I would already be expecting that the PCC shooters are going to start complaining that clubs haven't made racks for their guns, so add that to the to-do list, along with the associated time/cost involved...every bay now needs a carbine rack, and probably an extra safe area/table to accommodate them. Strawman argument much? Aghhhhh, stuff will have to be added! Stuff will have to be changed! Or maybe it won't. Facing up range pistol, PCC start facing downrange at low ready. Pistol gun in box, PCC start facing downrange at low ready. There are much simpler fixes than the ones you propose. PCC shooters want a rack? They can build their own, squad together and take it with them. This is not that difficult. As far as why in a pistol match instead of a 3 Gun match. It's a lot easier to change nothing than to try and set up two sets of targets. One for rifle and one for PCC. PCC is not really a viable option at 500 yards. Or really even 200. You can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me. 8.2.3 You cant start the competitor while they are touching their gun etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearsomeCritter Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 ou can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me. No you can't run a PCC with zero changes. the proposed appendix proves that as well as having to modify positions that PCC shooters shoot from in some stages. Saying zero changes is just wrong If PCC was so popular at SHOT then it shouldn't be to hard to create stand alone matches. I mean if there is so much industry support why not. And those changes apply to PCC shooters, not to handgun shooters so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 They would apply to who ever shoots the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearsomeCritter Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) They would apply to who ever shoots the match.What information do you have to support that if PCC can't do a specified start position (for example uprange starts) then everyone who shoots the match will have to follow the changes as opposed to PCC just being modified? Edited March 6, 2016 by FearsomeCritter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 ou can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me. No you can't run a PCC with zero changes. the proposed appendix proves that as well as having to modify positions that PCC shooters shoot from in some stages. Saying zero changes is just wrong If PCC was so popular at SHOT then it shouldn't be to hard to create stand alone matches. I mean if there is so much industry support why not. Why not? I know several matches can and have run PCC with zero changes to the match. Yes PCC has different start positions but it has zero effect, well maybe 10 extra seconds reading the WSB. Creating standalone matches is completely different. I'm assuming you've never done it yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 ou can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me. No you can't run a PCC with zero changes. the proposed appendix proves that as well as having to modify positions that PCC shooters shoot from in some stages. Saying zero changes is just wrong If PCC was so popular at SHOT then it shouldn't be to hard to create stand alone matches. I mean if there is so much industry support why not. Why not? I know several matches can and have run PCC with zero changes to the match. Yes PCC has different start positions but it has zero effect, well maybe 10 extra seconds reading the WSB. Creating standalone matches is completely different. I'm assuming you've never done it yourself. I set up matches all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearsomeCritter Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 ou can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me. No you can't run a PCC with zero changes. the proposed appendix proves that as well as having to modify positions that PCC shooters shoot from in some stages. Saying zero changes is just wrong If PCC was so popular at SHOT then it shouldn't be to hard to create stand alone matches. I mean if there is so much industry support why not. Why not? I know several matches can and have run PCC with zero changes to the match. Yes PCC has different start positions but it has zero effect, well maybe 10 extra seconds reading the WSB. Creating standalone matches is completely different. I'm assuming you've never done it yourself. I set up matches all the time. Yet still haven't answered my question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 ou can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me. No you can't run a PCC with zero changes. the proposed appendix proves that as well as having to modify positions that PCC shooters shoot from in some stages. Saying zero changes is just wrong If PCC was so popular at SHOT then it shouldn't be to hard to create stand alone matches. I mean if there is so much industry support why not. Why not? I know several matches can and have run PCC with zero changes to the match. Yes PCC has different start positions but it has zero effect, well maybe 10 extra seconds reading the WSB. Creating standalone matches is completely different. I'm assuming you've never done it yourself. LOL....nothing, zero has to change.....except..... LOL I have designed and put on many matches. If it is as popular as Mike and you say then it should not be hard to find the support staff to do it. If there is not enough interest to go through the hassle to set up it's own match then it shows that it is not worth putting a rifle into a handgun match to appease 3 shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearsomeCritter Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 LOL....nothing, zero has to change.....except..... LOL I have designed and put on many matches. If it is as popular as Mike and you say then it should not be hard to find the support staff to do it. If there is not enough interest to go through the hassle to set up it's own match then it shows that it is not worth putting a rifle into a handgun match to appease 3 shooters. Except that your statement is a good argument for adding PCC to USPSA as opposed to creating a separate sporting entity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 LOL....nothing, zero has to change.....except..... LOL I have designed and put on many matches. If it is as popular as Mike and you say then it should not be hard to find the support staff to do it. If there is not enough interest to go through the hassle to set up it's own match then it shows that it is not worth putting a rifle into a handgun match to appease 3 shooters. Except that your statement is a good argument for adding PCC to USPSA as opposed to creating a separate sporting entity How do you figure that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 ou can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me. No you can't run a PCC with zero changes. the proposed appendix proves that as well as having to modify positions that PCC shooters shoot from in some stages. Saying zero changes is just wrong If PCC was so popular at SHOT then it shouldn't be to hard to create stand alone matches. I mean if there is so much industry support why not. It the legal world its what we call harmless error. Meaning that the difference is so inconsequential that its not worth noting. Regardless it will not change the match for the pistol shooters other than having to look at and shoot with the PCC folks. Its almost like you resent others wanting to have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 LOL....nothing, zero has to change.....except..... LOL I have designed and put on many matches. If it is as popular as Mike and you say then it should not be hard to find the support staff to do it. If there is not enough interest to go through the hassle to set up it's own match then it shows that it is not worth putting a rifle into a handgun match to appease 3 shooters. Except that your statement is a good argument for adding PCC to USPSA as opposed to creating a separate sporting entity How do you figure that? Because you can draw those extra shooters make the club money when you otherwise could not hold a match just for one division and have much success. Your argument is the say as saying Revolver shooters should do their own matches. Their not pistols after all their revolvers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 ou can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me. No you can't run a PCC with zero changes. the proposed appendix proves that as well as having to modify positions that PCC shooters shoot from in some stages. Saying zero changes is just wrong If PCC was so popular at SHOT then it shouldn't be to hard to create stand alone matches. I mean if there is so much industry support why not. Why not? I know several matches can and have run PCC with zero changes to the match. Yes PCC has different start positions but it has zero effect, well maybe 10 extra seconds reading the WSB. Creating standalone matches is completely different. I'm assuming you've never done it yourself. I set up matches all the time. You're not the only one who has set up and ran matches in this discussion. Personally I like to draw more shooters not turn them away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 They would apply to who ever shoots the match. No it would not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearsomeCritter Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 LOL....nothing, zero has to change.....except..... LOL I have designed and put on many matches. If it is as popular as Mike and you say then it should not be hard to find the support staff to do it. If there is not enough interest to go through the hassle to set up it's own match then it shows that it is not worth putting a rifle into a handgun match to appease 3 shooters. Except that your statement is a good argument for adding PCC to USPSA as opposed to creating a separate sporting entity How do you figure that? Because you can draw those extra shooters make the club money when you otherwise could not hold a match just for one division and have much success. Your argument is the say as saying Revolver shooters should do their own matches. Their not pistols after all their revolvers. Damn I was typing this exact thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Why wouldn't the rules apply to everyone shooting the same match? What shooters would I be turning away? I have never had to tell someone with the proper equipment they could not shoot the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 LOL....nothing, zero has to change.....except..... LOL I have designed and put on many matches. If it is as popular as Mike and you say then it should not be hard to find the support staff to do it. If there is not enough interest to go through the hassle to set up it's own match then it shows that it is not worth putting a rifle into a handgun match to appease 3 shooters. Except that your statement is a good argument for adding PCC to USPSA as opposed to creating a separate sporting entity How do you figure that? Because you can draw those extra shooters make the club money when you otherwise could not hold a match just for one division and have much success. Your argument is the say as saying Revolver shooters should do their own matches. Their not pistols after all their revolvers. ` A revolver is not a handgun covered in the handgun rule book that we run our matches by? When did that happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 You're not the only one who has set up and ran matches in this discussion. Personally I like to draw more shooters not turn them away. I have never seen a shooter want to try and shoot a rifle at a handgun match and would not expect they would show up. Under you logic if a guy shows up with a shotgun let him shoot.......don't want any hurt feelings or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 There is a significant difference between running an existing match for an existing sport and trying to start something on its own from scratch. Could you point out where I said it's going to be so popular? Let alone so popular to support a new standalone match. Actually never mind. I don't care enough about it to argue with random people on the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 There is a significant difference between running an existing match for an existing sport and trying to start something on its own from scratch. Could you point out where I said it's going to be so popular? Let alone so popular to support a new standalone match. Actually never mind. I don't care enough about it to argue with random people on the internet. LOL You are the one that was making the claim that PCC was the biggest collection of new offerings at SHOT. I assume you were making that claim for a reason, like to say it was going to be popular. I am sorry if I didn't see the point you were not trying to make......while trying prove a point. Oh and unlike you I don't have a problem discussing things, even in this case, with a random person. It just makes it hard when they keep changing the point they try to make. I could just quit though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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